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Re: infor

I hear that.

To make matters worse, I suspect most of an area's social role models tend to be the most non-organic of persons who rely on their "lawn service" to prune and spray to keep the homestead neat and tidy for dinner parties. It's a stage set, not a garden.

On Saturday, June 19, 2004, at 04:13 PM, Kitty wrote:

You must realize you are an exception. Most people will not spend 16 hours
a day watering their plants. Many people will not live with plants with
holes in the leaves if there is a way to prevent it, organic or not. When I
said not feasible, I meant not feasible for the general population; I wasn't
referring to myself. I'm content to live with some destruction, others
won't or can't. Right now I've got a bug here I found on one of my lilies
last year. There was just one last year. I posted pictures, also showed to
our Hort Ed. While trying to get an ID, it destroyed the plant. This year
I found 4 of them on a Deutzia. Snipped the whole stem, bagged it and took
it in to CES. He said possibly lacebug, but I'm not so sure. Just found 2
more on another lily. This bug will not go away with a shot of water, he
needs stronger measures and I'm not about to let him go crazy on my lilies.
Without an ID, though, it's hard to know what to use.

Anyway, back to straight organic. I don't know if you have Japanese Beetles
there, but nothing organic is going to stop them. You can try Milky Spore,
but once the grubs die off there's nothing for MS to feed on and it goes
away. Even if it did persist, they'll just wing it over to your nice plants
from your neighbor's untreated yard.

I firmly believe in IPM and use even less than that warrants. I'm fairly
close to organic, including my fertilizers. But most people won't spend $30
/ bag to cover 2000 sq ft of lawn. Shoot, my neighbor won't spend $5.

For the activist, all organic is possible. For the perectionist it is not
feasible. For the the general population of gardeners out there who have a
garden as one of their many pastimes, who enjoy puttering in their garden
occasionally, who maybe just are determined that their landscape be
presentable, but have no intention of reading up on organic methods, it
isn't going to happen.

Ortho does too good a job marketing their chemicals. People who just want
the problem to go away are quick to grab "Bug-B-Gone" I've not read the
label, but just the thought that they want every bug to be gone scares me
because I know it must detrimentally affect the good bug population as well.
But not everyone has the level of interest that many of us share on this
list. So many people have no more than an hour or 2 a week to deal with
their landscape and it is not realistic to expect that they will strive for
the organic solution.


----- Original Message -----
From: <gardenqueen@academicplanet.com>
To: <gardenchat@hort.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [CHAT] infor

Not feasible where darlin'?? I've been all organic since I started the
bird/butterfly sanctuary 5-6 years ago and was 80% organic before. It
works here at least. Joanne across the street does the same. Is it
different there?

Pam Evans Kemp, TX zone 8A ----- Original Message ----- From: Kitty Sent: 6/19/2004 9:19:43 AM To: gardenchat@hort.net Subject: Re: [CHAT] infor


I have used Merit a couple of times with good results to protect my

tree from Japanese Beetles. I don't know how much bee activity there

be around birch catkins. Merit had been suggested by our Hort Ed as a

product than those previously used, but no product of this sort is

completely safe. I was concerned about the affect to soil organisms in


I've been on amessage board where, when the subject of Merit was raised,

folks came out vehemently against it for all sorts of reasons. But the

objections came from people that I would guess to be totally organic

In a better world everything would be organic, but with what we have

it's not feasible.

I no longer use Merit but this is mainly because I am a lazy gardener
and I

don't resort to insecticides unless absolutely necessary. Japanese

seem to have declined in number in the past few years, but that is

cyclical. In a couple more years I may have to resort to such measures



----- Original Message -----

From: <Cersgarden@aol.com>

To: <gardenchat@hort.net>

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 8:38 AM

Subject: [CHAT] infor

I am a lurker on an iris list. I am sending a message copied from it.


are your thoughts? I have never used this product nor have I


use of. The writer seems to be a very knowledgeable member of this


Generally systemic insecticides are considered to be reasonably safe

pollinators since they don't get excessive exposure via the pollen or

nectar, but Merit may be a bit different. The active ingredient

(imidacloprid) has two actions. One, at higher doses, is lethal to


At lower doses it can affect behavior without directly killing the

such as stopping aphids from feeding. It is the behavioral effects


of concern regarding bees since it is claimed that imidacloprid can


foraging activities.-- in fact some of it's uses were banned in France

because of complaints from beekeepers. Bayer (who make it) deny these

claims based on what seems like good research, and there haven't been

complaints about its impact on bees in the US as far as I know. This


complicated by the fact that bee populations in the US have been

by Varroa mites, and if colonies do decline, it could well be mites

are causing it. So, as usual, the situation is murky, and it depends

you believe. There are some interesting websites on this if anyone is

interested in digging deeper. I have a couple of research projects at

moment on this compound and its effects on insects, so the area is of

interest to me and all of this may be more than you wanted to know!.


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Island Jim
Southwest Florida
Zone 10
27.0 N, 82.4 W

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