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Re: Politics/Bonnie


Ok, I guess I'm on a quote kick, but this seems apropos:

We live in terror because persuasion is no longer possible...because we live in a world of abstractions, or bureaus and machines, or absolute ideas and crude messianism. We suffocate among people who think they are absolutely right, whether in their machines or in their ideas. And for all who can live only in an atmosphere of human dialogue and sociability, this silence is the end of the world.
--Albert Camus


Cathy
On Monday, June 28, 2004, at 11:19 PM, David Franzman wrote:

Bonnie, it's disturbing! Politics is the give and take of ideas not dogma.
Certainly my views have shifted after hearing a well presented case and as I
age my beliefs blend and mellow. Frankly, it's the extremes that irritate
me on both sides. Whoever doesn't agree with them are unthinking, godless
and unAmerican. I hate that!


I believe the media has much to do with that. Instead of thoughtful
discussion they have to get into these loud, bashing arguments calling each
other names. Just part of the dumbing down of America. "What should we
watch tonight honey the Worlds Wrestling Federation or the Riley Report?"
Pretty pathetic!


One last thing since I'm on a roll: If 40% are rock solid on one side or
the other and only 6% are undecided and with only 50% of those elegable to
vote actually doing so then roughly 26% of the electorate dictate to the
rest of the country the direction we will follow for at least the next four
years. NOW THAT IS SCARY! My God people do your civic duty, study the
issues and vote.


David Franzman
A Touch of the Tropics
www.atouchofthetropics.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bonnie Holmes" <holmesbm@usit.net>
To: <gardenchat@hort.net>
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Politics


I agree that there seems to be growing intolerance for differing ideas and
that seems to be supported by some of the political analysis groups.
Seems
that around 40% of the voters are stuck on each side with little movement
back and forth no matter what the news or issues. Both parties target the
true 6% undecided...now THAT is scary for a democracy. (Jesse, are you
truly in that 6%?)


Husband and I went to see Fahrenheit 911 this afternoon...very
interesting...biased but definitely thought provoking. I had heard about
some of the Saudi connections on a talk show a month back...no one knew
what the caller was talking about...there is also a book on this issue in
addition to Moore's take.


Bonnie Zone 6+ ETN




[Original Message]
From: David Franzman <dfranzma@pacbell.net>
To: <gardenchat@hort.net>
Date: 06/28/2004 1:51:50 PM
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Politics

Let me add something to this. Bonnie I agree with you that politics is
a
difficult subject in a gardening group. I enjoy it because I enjoy
politics
and the discussion of ideas. I don't add too much to it though because
I
recognize that there are different ideas out there and not everybody
likes
debates.

However, none of us had the tag "Re-Elect Nimrod and Ripoff for
President"
until Liz did which was on her first message she sent to the group.
Perhaps
what she doesn't like is the fact that many of us don't agree with her
position instead of the content and/or subject. You see I find a
growing
lack of respect for differing views in this country from both the right
and
left but I'm thoroughly sick of those who profess to be conservative
calling
all of us in the middle or slightly left of center as lefties, liberals
or
commies and unAmerican to boot.

Liz, if you didn't like politics mixed into the garden soil then why did
your initial message have the Re-elect message at the bottom? Go and
see
the movie! Stretch your mind. Keep an open mind and try and see what
the
other side sees sometimes. It may not change your mind but it might
give
you a different perspective.

David Franzman
A Touch of the Tropics
www.atouchofthetropics.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kitty" <kmrsy@comcast.net>
To: <gardenchat@hort.net>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Fahrenheit 911


Bonnie, Liz, and All -
Here is the original posting:
"I saw this movie today, and all I can say is that it was awesome!
Everyone
should make an effort to see it."
The responses were short items about ticket prices, distances to
theatres,
plans to see it, and acquisition news.
There was no mention of "stupidity" in regard to opposing views.  In
fact,
no opposing views were voiced. I don't see any harm in someone
suggesting
a
movie to the group.
In fact, I fully intend to see Two Brothers when it gets to a theatre
close
to me. I hope the dog-lovers out there aren't offended by my saying
so.

Kitty



----- Original Message ----- From: "Bonnie & Bill Morgan" <wmorgan972@ameritech.net> To: <gardenchat@hort.net> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 10:42 PM Subject: RE: [CHAT] Fahrenheit 911


Liz, not all of us are left in more than our handedness. It does
appear
that those with left political leanings are more vocal at this point
than
those of us in the middle or leaning a little more right
politically.
I
am
not a fan of political name calling and bashing either, regardless
of
party.
I do think that while there is freedom of speech, courtesy would
dictate
that the political discussions should be done privately rather than
in
our
normally friendly little garden chat group.

Keeping it in this forum does make those of us with a different
viewpoint
feel as though we are being told we are "stupid" for seeing another
side
of
things by the tone of recent discussions. I don't carry on about
Kerry,
or
Kennedy (only to name a few) or the things I find so distasteful on
the
left side, because I consider you all as friends and as individuals
capable
of having independent ideas and I wouldn't want to make you think I
didn't
hold you in high esteem even though I disagree with much of what
I've
heard
politically on this list lately.

I do love all of you out there, regardless of your politics, but I
too
am
tiring of the one-sided nature of the political discussions as of
late.
Could we all get back to more "friendly" and less political topics?
Even
topics regarding gardening, the ecology, natural resources and bills
associated with that would be O.K. if it were couched as something
for
all
to consider rather than laying blame and/or pointing fingers to this
individual or party as if everything you read or hear in the press
were
fact. There are two sides to every story. And while we
finger-point
to
some unnamed evil, remember that our society is what WE make of it
and
if
we
wanted only one view, we could relax and let someone become
dictator.

O.K., I'm off my soapbox.


Blessings,
Bonnie (SW OH - zone 5)

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-gardenchat@hort.net [mailto:owner-gardenchat@hort.net]
On
Behalf
Of Elizabeth Gessler
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 7:43 PM
To: gardenchat@hort.net
Subject: RE: [CHAT] Farenheit 911

Can someone please sned me the instructions to unsubscribe from this
list.
I
wasn't aware that this was a politic list with obvious very left
leanings.
Liz in PA

Re-elect Bush-Cheney in 2004


-----Original Message----- From: owner-gardenchat@hort.net [mailto:owner-gardenchat@hort.net]
On
Behalf
Of Kitty
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 7:49 PM
To: gardenchat@hort.net
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Farenheit 911

I really would love to see it, almost went to the first showing
today
at
11:55. But I reluctantly decided I couldn't spend the $10 it would
cost
me
on a movie.
I was thrilled to read, "When Fahrenheit 9/11 opened in New York on
Wednesday, it broke box-office records, beating out even Men in
Black
with
wall-to-wall sold-out shows"

Kitty

----- Original Message -----
From: <Zemuly@aol.com>
To: <gardenchat@hort.net>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 6:22 PM
Subject: [CHAT] Farenheit 911


I saw this movie today, and all I can say is that it was awesome!
Everyone
should make an effort to see it.
zem


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