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Re: /schools

I also really enjoy the fact that as a diverse group of folks we can
have a rational discussion on such issues and still all remain friendly.

Melody, IA (Z 5/4)

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious."    
--Albert Einstein

 --- On Thu 05/20, Kitty < kmrsy@comcast.net > wrote:
From: Kitty [mailto: kmrsy@comcast.net]
To: gardenchat@hort.net
Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 09:58:40 -0500
Subject: Re: [CHAT] /schools

David,<br>Re &gt; (I am not a commie...I promise) *sniff*<br>Now, you
know I wasn't calling you a Red Menace or anything like
that!<br>Seriously, though, I believe there are good elements in
communism and<br>socialism, but as a complete way of governing, no.
Capitalism, though, it<br>has a few not-so-good elements does work for
us.<br><br>I like the fact that we can discuss such matters and not get
overheated<br>about it. I agree that public schools need work, just not
on how to achieve<br>it.<br><br>Kitty<br><br>----- Original Message
----- <br>From: &quot;David Franzman&quot;
&lt;dfranzma@pacbell.net&gt;<br>To: &lt;gardenchat@hort.net&gt;<br>Sent:
Thursday, May 20, 2004 12:42 AM<br>Subject: Re: [CHAT]
/schools<br><br><br>&gt; Cathy, most of the folks on this list are
probably pretty tired of me<br>&gt; already but my take on vouchers is
that you would have all the parents of<br>&gt; the kids who care about
their futures trying to get into a couple of the<br>&gt;
&quot;good&quot; schools leaving the poorest (who can't drive their kids
across<br>town)<br>&gt; and those who don't care going to what is left.
This I think would make<br>the<br>&gt; matter that much worse. Vouchers
to me are a cop out for fixing what has<br>&gt; really become an endemic
problem. If we know there are bad schools then<br>&gt; they should be
fixed not allowed to turn out thousands of kids we know<br>&gt; received
an inferior education. That's something we can't
ignore.<br>However,<br>&gt; schools will never have the same quality of
education until the money that<br>&gt; funds them is evenly spread so
that kids in poor neighborhoods get the<br>same<br>&gt; buck for the
bang. That ain't going to happen for a long time I fear.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;
(I am not a commie...I promise) *sniff*<br>&gt; David Franzman<br>&gt; A
Touch of the Tropics<br>&gt; www.atouchofthetropics.net<br>&gt; -----
Original Message ----- <br>&gt; From: &quot;cathy carpenter&quot;
&lt;cathyc@rnet.com&gt;<br>&gt; To: &lt;gardenchat@hort.net&gt;<br>&gt;
Sent: Wednes

day, May 19, 2004 7:04 PM<br>&gt; Subject: Re: [CHAT]
/schools<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; At risk of being strung up, I
think that there is much to be said for<br>&gt; &gt; vouchers. Why
shouldn't parents decide where to send their children?<br>&gt; &gt;
Especially if they are not happy with what is produced by the
public<br>&gt; &gt; education system? Its called putting money where
your mouth is. Why<br>&gt; &gt; should the super wealthy be the only
ones to have that privilege?<br>&gt; &gt; Cathy<br>&gt; &gt; On
Wednesday, May 19, 2004, at 09:54 AM, Kitty wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt; I understand your theory, David. And, I'm sorry if my reply
sounded<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; 'heated'. Not so, just speaking up.<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; However, if your theory were to be put into
practice - which it can't<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; be -<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;
there'd be less money to go around. I have no idea how many
millions<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; of kids<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; are in private
schools, but if they were all sent to public schools,<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;
the<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; system would collapse. Public schools are using
the funds from taxes<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; that<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; pay for
private kids on the public kids and still can't make
ends<br>meet.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Also, one of the great
privleges we as Americans enjoy is choice. I<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;
don't<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; approve of home-schooling, but I do believe
those parents have the<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; right to<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;
choose that route. I also believe that if you want special
schooling<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; for<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; your kids - like the
nutcases who enroll their kids in nursery school<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;
while<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; they are still in the womb - you can make that
choice. To say NO to<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; these<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; choices
and to private school simply because you think it
could<br>improve<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; public schools, goes against the
grain of our society. It's<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;

cialistic or<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; maybe even communistic - both systems
with good ideals and properties<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; - that<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt; will not necessarily fix the public school problem. Public
schools<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; must fix<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; themselves, thus
making themselves attractive, by choice, to<br>consumers.<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Also - the best and the brightest are not
necessarily in private<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; schools. W<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;
went to private schools.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;
Kitty<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; ----- Original Message
-----<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: &quot;David Franzman&quot;
&lt;dfranzma@pacbell.net&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; To:
&lt;gardenchat@hort.net&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, May 19,
2004 1:14 AM<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: Re: [CHAT] /schools<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;Too broad a
statement, David.&quot;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;
Kitty, I don't want to get into a heated debate over what is
simply<br>my<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; belief however I don't understand why
your personal experience with<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; parochial schools
makes my statement too broad. My point was that if<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;
we<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; were all sent to the same institutions of
learning instead of<br>separate<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; whether for
personal reasons or wealth the entire society would have<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; more<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; concern for the welfare of public
education which as you must admit<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; turns<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; out far more children than private. Therefore our schools
would be<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; better<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; because
there would be far more involvement by those who wield more<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; power<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; within our society.<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Nobody would argue that private
institutions are bad places for<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; learning.<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;

Far from it. In fact, what they do is funnel the best and the<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; brightest<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; out<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; of
the public school system and even worse take the most powerful<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; people<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; in<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; the
country and make public education not their problem.<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; David
Franzman<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; A Touch of the Tropics<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; www.atouchofthetropics.net<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; ----- Original
Message -----<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; From: &quot;Kitty&quot;
&lt;kmrsy@comcast.net&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; To:
&lt;gardenchat@hort.net&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, May 18,
2004 7:48 PM<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Subject: Re: Re: [CHAT]
/schools<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I've said this all my adult life: Private schools are
the bane of<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; this<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
country.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Too broad a statement, David.<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Speaking from my experience of 12 years of parochial
school, which<br>is<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; private school, but not
quite the private school that Bill Gate's<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
kids<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; would<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
attend.......<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I was able to receive a good
education with, I believe, less of the<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
interuptions you mentioned in another post. Baby-sitting didn't<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; happen<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; in<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
my classes. Can't behave ? Out you go. My parents paid tuition<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; for 3<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; of<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
us and we weren't well off by any standards. All the parents
that<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; pay<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; tuition for
parochial schools get no tax break from the govt, and<br>yet<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt; they<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; do not make use of funds that
the govt has

signed for public<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; schools.<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; For<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 12 yrs x 3, my folks paid taxes
which went to public schools AND<br>they<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; paid<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; tuition. This allows the public schools extra funds.
It's not our<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; fault<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; they
didn't use it wisely. If I had had kids, they too would have<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; attended<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; parochial
school.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
Kitty<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; ----- Original
Message -----<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; From: &quot;David Franzman&quot;
&lt;dfranzma@pacbell.net&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; To:
&lt;gardenchat@hort.net&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, May
18, 2004 7:11 PM<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: Re: [CHAT]
/schools<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Melody (I'm sorry folks I realize this is a garden
group and not a<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; soapbox<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for political agendas) I think the problem is in the
reality. The<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; reality<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
is that there are far too many students in California who
don't<br>care<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; and<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; whose
parents don't care whether they get an education or not.<br>Fact<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt; is<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; that<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; there is only so much money and resources and the way
we casually<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; spend<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; money
in this country insures a bleak future for education.<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I've said this all my
adult life: Private schools are the bane of<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;
this<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; country. They guarantee unequal
education. Send Bill Gate's and<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Warren<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Buffet's kids to public schools and we wouldn't be
having t

his<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; discussion<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; right
now. But as long as we don't we lose untold thousands of<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; bright<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; kids<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; who don't have the resources to a good education and
hence fall<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; through<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
the<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; cracks.<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; David Franzman<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; A Touch of the Tropics<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; www.atouchofthetropics.net<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ----- Original Message -----<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: &quot;Melody&quot;
&lt;mhobertm@excite.com&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To:
&lt;gardenchat@hort.net&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday,
May 18, 2004 2:03 AM<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: Re:
[CHAT] New oleander/schools<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; DF: This is the
result of a poorly thought out and woefully<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;
underfunded<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;No Child Left Behind
Act&quot;, brought to you courtesy of our current<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; government officials. In order to continue
qualifying for federal<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; financial aid
for school districts, each school must meet grade<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;
level<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; requirements, you know. Well, if
a certain percentage of the<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; children<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; can't make it and that prevents the school from
getting funding,<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; then<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; what is the logical step? To reduce the level of
difficulty of<br>what<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; is<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; being taught to the lowest common denominator, i.e.
dumbing down.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; it's purest form, NCLB would be a godsend to the
children of<br>&gt;

gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; America...teaching them to reach for the
highest standards. In<br>it's<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; current
bastardized version, it's a nightmare! Political action,<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; though...the strength of character to stand up for
what you<br>believe<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in...is the only
thing that will change this unfortunate course of<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; action our elected officials have embarked upon.
Write or call<br>your<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; local federal
and state legislators and demand that they fully<br>fund<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; the<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; NCLB act. Okay...off the
soapbox now...sorry, folks!<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Melody, IA (Z 5/4)<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;The most
beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious.&quot;<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --Albert Einstein<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --- On Mon 05/17,
David Franzman &lt; dfranzma@pacbell.net &gt; wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: David Franzman [mailto:
dfranzma@pacbell.net]<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To:
gardenchat@hort.net<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Date: Mon, 17 May
2004 20:41:32 -0700<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: Re:
[CHAT] New oleander/schools<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No, no, no Pam! It's &quot;Can I supersize
that for you!&quot; Man, could I<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; tell<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; you&lt;br&gt;stories about my kids school. They
watch more movies than<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; attendants at&lt;br&gt;the Sundance Movie
Festival. What's worse is that<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; not<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; only are most of the&lt;br&gt;movies out of context
with the clas

s but<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; many<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; of<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; them are...ugh...cartoons.&lt;br&gt;Now are we
talking about an<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; elementary<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; school? Nope! High school. The&lt;br&gt;coup
d' grace was when my<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; daughter<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; came home from school and she told
me&lt;br&gt;that they watched, in<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Spanish<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; class, a Flintstones cartoon
movie...IN&lt;br&gt;ENGLISH! Oh, it did<br>have<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Spanish subtitles. The schools are dumbing
down&lt;br&gt;our kids and I<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; find<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; it repugnant.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;David
Franzman&lt;br&gt;A Touch of the<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
Original<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Message -----<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;br&gt;From:
&lt;gardenqueen@academicplanet.com&gt;&lt;br&gt;To:<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;gardenchat@hort.net&gt;&lt;br&gt;Sent: Monday,
May 17, 2004 7:35<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; PM&lt;br&gt;Subject:<br>&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Re: Re: [CHAT] New
oleander/schools&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&gt; Agreed. I've
seen<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; what<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the
local public schools produce here - you want&lt;br&gt;fries w/
that?<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
Appalling.&lt;br&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&gt; Pam Evans&lt;br&gt;&gt; Kemp,
TX&lt;br&gt;&gt; zone 8A&lt;br&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
-----<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Original Message
-----&lt;br&gt;&gt; From: james singer&lt;br&gt;&gt;
Sent:<br>5/17/2004<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 4:24:57
PM&lt;br&gt;&gt; To: gardenchat@hort.net&lt;br&gt;&gt; Subject: Re:
[CHAT]<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; New<br>&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; oleander&lt;br&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&gt; &gt; Yes, they
are. And I think the Montessori<br>&gt; &gt; &gt

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