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Re: new introductions--Tattoo vs. GE, etc.

  • Subject: Re: new introductions--Tattoo vs. GE, etc.
  • From: michael shelton <wilddog_202@yahoo.com>
  • Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:05:25 -0700 (PDT)

Butch says; to Andrew

Since I also don't know you from Adam, your right that
I should not have taken such a strong position.

And let me apoligize and I will try to do better.

One question before I go on, as a "lay geneticist" do
you know if Tele-avangelist do more than lay people?

I to dropped off because while not allowing myself to
be a pin cushion and my willingness to take up the
fight of someone who seemed to be a pin cushion, I did
become weary of the fights and politics.

The question of a "Good Housekeeping Seal" is only
valuble inside the AHS. And, I don't really like the
concept of what "should be" anywhere. A Seal would
have very limited influence in the larger market (your
belief that it would only effect 80% is in my
experience off by 18-19 percent, like 98-99%). Just
for the sake of explaining my experience, I was the
leading salesman for Walters Gardens Perennials a
couple of years and sold wholesale for 17 years before
I started producing Mulch and Soils (bagged and bulk)
Yet, I agree it would be worthwhile if anyone inside
or outside the AHS would take on such a project.
Notice I talk out of both sides of my mouth, because I
believe it would be so political as to probably piss
me off and I would fight with the political factions
who would bring their self-interest to the rules. I
found the growers association very ineffective because
there were so many conflicting self-interest which
lead to limited real consenses. I'm not saying they
are bad or haven't done anything.

As to why GE is a problem, out of every 100 GE out of
the test tube 80% had mishapen root systems, and I
noticed that with others as well. Yet, a plant like
'Sun Power' looked like a perfect little seedling. GE
has some problem going through TC which is way beyond
my ability to explain. Finally, I don't think the
problem is cultural with GE. In this case I'm proving
the negative that so many people would not have that
many problems if it were cultural.

I try to use the e-mail for cultural information which
is where most of my knowledge and interest lies.

Because of my background in marketing of plants I do
know something about the misconceptions that
collectors have about the production and marketing of
plant material. This I think leads to a lot of wasted
time about what "should be" and even if we collectors
all agree about what "should be" the collector is not
in control of the wholesale process. And most would
starve to death in the business of growing and selling
plants yet they somehow feel that they know what
"should be". The grower tries to get all he can get
and the buyer tries to buy as cheap as he can. That is
the market place. Which is what Ran is trying to do
even thought I think he believes he has higher ideals.
Ran, don't defend yourself because I'm not attacking
you.

Again, I will try to do better.

--- Andrew Lietzow <alietzow@myfamily.com> wrote:

> Dear Butch, 
> RE:Your comment >>"So, you got one that wasn't
> perfect, does that justify publishing to a wide
> audience the problems that you had. Get over your
> self-righteous self".
> 
> My goal here has always been to better understand
> Hostas, as an ornamental for use in the landscape,
> and more recentlly, from the inside out from a lay
> geneticist's point of view, and as an hybridizer.  
> 
> During the last four years, spurred on by Jim Hawes,
> Ben Z., George Schmid, Joe Halinar, John Lanier,
> Bill Meyer and a whole host of others, I've been
> studying genetics.  At times, I think I might be
> making some progress.   I try to make sure I don't
> get too technical yet I know there are several here
> who have a great deal of knowledge about Hosta, much
> more than I.  I like to ask (them) questions.  I
> also freely share what little knowledge I have with
> those who do likewise.  
> 
> Unfortunately, I dropped off of these lists a few
> years ago, because peole were resorting to name
> calling and I began to realize this was not a
> productive use of my time.  Instead of pursuing
> idle, unproductive chatter while serving as a pin
> cushion, I buried myself in workshops on lab
> techniques for DNA sequencing (learning about PCR,
> AFLP, RFLP, RAPD analysis, and the like.), flow
> cytometry, and tried to learn a little something
> about transposons, retro-viruses, and the nematode
> resistance gene, Hs1pro-1.  I'm not smart yet, but
> I'm gaining on it.  
> 
> The reason I brought up Tattoo was that a few folks
> here were talking about timing for bringing new
> introductions to the public.  Ran mentioned that his
> standard is to resist the temptation to introduce a
> new plant until it has been tried and proven.   I
> agree with this NEARLY wholeheartedly (you don't
> know me, so you don't know that in my garden I have
> a special tribute area to Ran Lydell--I hold him and
> his opinion in very high regard), yet I made the
> comment that the registration process should not be
> considered to be something like a "Good Housekeeping
> Seal of Approval".  It serves a different purpose.  
> 
> 
> New plants need testing, in-situ--i.e. onsite, out
> in the field.  Because TC Labs are ex-situ
> environments, they are useful for reasons that you
> apparently know full well.  Unfortunately, good
> results in the lab do not always translate to good
> results in the garden.  New intros, which haven't
> had extensive in-situ testing, can be sold to a
> limited audience of collectors and above average
> gardeners, and IMO, such practice serves the
> industry well.  We need to know how these things
> grow in Zones 3-9, and how they grow for the above
> average gardener before they are rolled out to the
> average gardener.  
> 
> Part of why technically oriented folks like myself
> go on Hosta tours is to see how well the new and
> different intros are doing in other's gardens and,
> when we study the ancestry of the good growers, we
> gain valuable information for hybridizing.  So, when
> a bad grower hits the mass market, it's not the
> people who are broken, it's the process.  
> Fortunately, processes can be fixed! 
> 
> Beyond garden tours, where can we talk of such
> things?  Email lists!  From this list, I was seeking
> productive conversation, like what Narda
> recommended, to determine how many growers or
> gardeners are having good luck with Tattoo.  And, if
> you were one of them, I'd love to hear what you're
> doing to get it to grow!  :-) 
> 
> Personally, I have no trouble growing GE but I have
> learned to count myself fortunate.  I have two
> clumps; one now a monster, after 12 years (Marvin
> has a photo in his "Excellent Photos" section) and
> the other is starting to take off from TC plants. 
> Though some percentage of gardeners DO have trouble
> with this plant, I DO NOT believe this is due to
> inferior genetics.  It's a microclimate issue and
> I'm quite certain that you would find this to be
> true in nearly ALL instances where GE does not
> perform well.  
> 
> When people see my GE, some ask, "How did you get it
> to grow so well?".  I offer my limited wisdom and
> they go away with renewed hope.  That is what I was
> looking for from this list and, usually, I find it. 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, though I don't know you from Adam,
> you closed your comments with "Get over your
> self-righteous self".  How this could possibly be
> construed as a positive addition to the dialogue is
> beyond me.  You can do better and I hope you will...
> 
> 
> Ciao, 
> Andrew
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: michael shelton <wilddog_202@yahoo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 10:49 PM
> To: hosta-open@hort.net
> Cc: 
> Subject: Re: new introductions
> 
> Butch says; to Andrew Lietzow 
> 
> I suggest that you did not pay 50-100 for your
> Tattoo
> and that what you did pay does not give you the
> right
> to question the garden worthiness of the plant. Now
> if
> you paid the introduction price and had a division
> of
> the original plant then you may have a gripe. I'm
> not
> even sure about that because when I first saw Tattoo
> in Atlanta is was so cute that I wanted it then not
> later but Tony kept it off the market for a while.
> So
> I choose to believe that you paid a small amount for
> a
> TC plant which vary greatly in their vigor, etc.
> BTW,
> I've had plants in TC where I got 100% of the
> production and they are relatively inexpensive that
> way but they are not perfect. So, you got one that
> wasn't perfect, does that justify publishing to a
> wide
> audiance the problems that you had. Get over your
> self-righteous self.
> > 
> > I suppose this is what Ran and Dan are saying, yet
> > they do so succintly.  My take, however, is, "IF
> you
> > have something unique, get it out there to the
> > collectors and investigators.  We don't mind
> paying
> > $50 or $100 for a plant that we later discover is
> a
> > dud.  That's a risk we are willing to take to be
> at
> > the bleeding edge.  But the originators, TC labs,
> > wholesalers, and introducers need to take some
> > responsibility to restrict distribution until the
> > plant is tried and proven".  .  
> > 
> > If it's going to be let loose in quantity from the
> > TC labs, and is sold without a "caveat emptor"
> > clause, that's where I think some standards need
> to
> > be established.  Probably, this in the form of
> > "stamp of approval", "seal of excellence" or a
> > "Collector's Only" label from the Hosta Grower's
> > Association.  The AHS should probably not perform
> > this function.  I think it was talked about more
> at
> > the grower level than the plant level, and didn't
> go
> > over too well.   I invite comment.  
> > 
> > With that said, now I'm going to surf on over to
> the
> > Plant Delights website and see if Tony agrees with
> > my assessment of 'Tattoo'.  Maybe he's still
> saying
> > it's hardy because he hasn't personally killed it
> > three times.  Maybe I'll post a follow-up, or
> maybe
> > he'll jump on a jet to DSM to beat the stuffin'
> out
> > of me.  I might not even be able to type... Lucky
> > you.   
> > 
> > Ciao, 
> > Andrew 
> >
>
_____________________________________________________________________
> > Get your own family web site at www.MyFamily.com!
> > 
> >
>
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> 
>
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