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Re: soil

  • Subject: Re: soil
  • From: michael shelton <wilddog_202@yahoo.com>
  • Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:50:33 -0700 (PDT)

Hey Bill

I believe you think I'm talking about some pure
organic approach to hobby gardening. The things I'm
saying about the soil are purely practical and I don't
care about anything anyone does toward that end. When
I get to vinegar it should be clear. Reread my post
without thinking that it relates to anything but how
the soil works and if you understand for example that
tilling creates a problem then you won't do it. Take
the label off me and look for what will help you grow
these plants to their maximum size, beauty and health.

1. I realized that I had spoken out of turn on
nematodes immediately and retracted my statement.

2. I have no interest in what method is used to kill
the slugs because they have to DIE. So any method that
accomplishes that is fine. Vinegar is an acid and will
cause problems if sprayed on the foliage. I said spray
the area around the hosta on the ground. There will be
a mild chemical reaction that will neutralize the acid
and the process will get back to work. Many of the
slugs will be dead by then and repeated applications
will take care of the problem. Household ammonia works
also and it to will have a similar small reaction
period with the soil. 

3. I cannot imagine what I said that lead you to
believe the things I've learned about how the soil
works has anything to do with bringing in pest,
disease, or invasive plants. If I did I'll use the
Presidential excuse of I misspoke myself. And like
Bush I know I must have made a mistake but I can't
remember one. Except that woman I met in Nashville, I
knew it was a mistake but I couldn't help myself.

4. I'm not talking about no-till farming but much of
what is being learned is from research in sustainable
farming and no-till is in that area. Hobby gardening
is not sustainable and will disappear as soon as you
walk away. BIG SO, everything I'm saying will help you
grow these weak hybrids to their maximum size, beauty
and health.

5. You use the word "seems" to grow bigger better
hosta. They are doing this by 2 methods, added
fertilizer and regular watering. All of this attention
seems to work but it is the extra attention that gives
the result. Your words "at the bottom of all of this"
I'll give you the formula that will accomplish your
1. Plant in the smallest hole possible.
2. Mulch
3. Water (another whole discussion)
4. Make compost tea and foliar spray. If you want to
add more fertilizer then add it to the foliar spray.

Almost your last line is "it does not seem to be the
best". Prove it by setting up side by side trials.
Then it won't seem like I'm right or wrong, you will
know. I've said that it takes about 3 years for the
system to really get going so you won't have good
results until the 5th year. Do you plan to have your
garden that long?

--- Bill Meyer <njhosta@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Butch,
>       Several points come to mind.
> 1. Foliar nematodes very definitely overwinter in
> dead hosta leaves. That's
> where the greatest number of dormant overwintering
> ones are. They are still
> in the soil and the crown of the plant too, but most
> are in the dead leaves.
> These should always be collected and disposed of at
> the end of the season.
> 2. Vinegar make a pretty good weedkiller from what I
> understand. See here -
> http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2002/020515.htm Why
> are you spraying it on
> your hostas if it is toxic to plants?
> 3. It is irresponsible to bring a pest or disease or
> invasive plant into a
> new area and just let it spread. God won't take care
> of cleaning up the
> mess - it will just keep spreading if the conditions
> are right. We should
> all be very careful about what we let loose in our
> backyards and try to
> clean up the problem if we can. Many serious
> problems have been caused by
> careless gardeners thinking someone else should
> clean up the mess they made.
> The most recent one I've heard of is the new spread
> of giant hogweed here in
> the Northeast. It was brought in by a gardener who
> liked it and it escaped
> and is spreading everywhere.
> 4. No-Till farming methods are not what I think
> we're talking about here.
> These mostly involve the use of a lot of herbicides
> to kill everything off
> between plantings. They are not "organic" by any
> stretch.
> 5. At the bottom of all this discussion is the
> question of whether most
> people just dig and plant and do leave the soil
> alone after that. It's only
> those looking to grow them bigger that redig and
> amend. Those who do that
> have clearly gotten hostas to grow very big, and I
> can see where this is a
> good way to deal with very weak growers that we want
> to grow to larger
> sizes. Digging and amending does seem to give better
> growth than methods
> that leave the soil alone. Yes, it is additional
> "life support", but that is
> something they are trying to accomplish - support
> growth beyond what would
> naturally occur. I don't think talk of natural
> approaches takes into account
> just how unnatural many of the plants we grow are.
> This doesn't just apply
> to hostas. Advocates of no-till farming don't claim
> to have greater yields
> per acre than tilling methods. They point to reduced
> costs/greater profits
> per acre and less impact on the environment. Since
> what many hosta growers
> want is maximum growth, the no-till approach does
> not seem to be the best
> choice.
>                                    ........Bill
> Meyer
> > --- Bill Meyer <njhosta@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >>Mulch from unknown sources will also contain a
> > variety of weed seeds, and other things that are
> not a
> > good idea to introduce to the garden. Among those
> are
> > a variety of viral, fungal, and bacterial, and
> insect
> > problems, which may end up introducing new
> diseases to
> > your trees and shrubs which were not already
> present
> > on your property. In short, there are
> > numerous problems associated with year-round
> mulching,
> > especially with mulch that has not been well
> > sterilized by high temperatures when composted.
> > Do those soil scientists recommending this
> practice
> > take into account the number and variety of
> problems
> > that can come in with non-sterile mulch
> > gathered from a variety of sources?
> >
> > Butch says; how do you think God deals with these
> > plagues you see coming into your garden. It simply
> > ain't so. The weed seed in your garden is mainly
> blown
> > in from sources you have no control over and in
> more
> > or less the same quanity that might be in some
> mulch
> > you purchase. The process of decomposition takes
> care
> > of most of the problems and those that get out of
> > balance must be dealt with by you with pesticides
> or
> > herbicides. The idea that you can buy sterile
> mulch is
> > simply an old wives tale. Composted mulch does
> reduce
> > weed seed but it also uses up much of the value in
> the
> > mulch for the soil and it is not sterile. A new
> mulch
> > dressing covers some of the weed seeds that are
> there
> > and brings in some more. Net loss or gain is zero.
> >
> >
> > To sign-off this list, send email to
> majordomo@hort.net with the
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  • References:
    • Re: soil
      • From: "Bill Meyer" <njhosta@hotmail.com>

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