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Re: NUMBERS IN HOSTA NAMES


 As I said, I really don't care if anyone agrees, it's just what I think
and its why I haven't introduced a single streaked plant out of the
thousands and thousands I have grown.  You can introduce as many as you
like.  I happen to be a great fan of 'Sea Prize' and have no problem with
it being in the trade because I think it is a great breeder.  I may name
and introduce some of my favorite breeders if I have a surplus and I may
give them a name of their own if I feel like it.  I'm not making any
rules here, just stating an opinion.

It seems that you are always searching for some ulterior motive in my
pronouncements.  I'm not jumping through hoops to support anything. I
just explained the way I handle these plants. 

I'm not sure I am making a distinction between streaked and unstreaked
plants.  It just seems to me that a plant shouldn't be introduced just
because it's streaked any more than a seedling should be introduced just
because it's blue, or variegated for that matter.  I'm not a great fan of
introducing all these streaked plants because it seems to me that nobody
would be paying these rather unusual prices for ordinary streaked plants
if they were familiar with how common it is, and I wonder if these plants
would be introduced if they brought what they were worth. If these plants
were selling for ten or fifteen bucks, I wouldn't have a problem with
it.  And I'm not talking about every streaked plant that has a name. Some
are better than others, some, to me at least, don't show me a thing.  I
didn't say the practice should be banned, I just said I'm not a big fan
of it. I think that's ok for me to have an opinion without looking for
ulterior motives.  Far be it from me to make rules.

You jump to a few conclusions below.  First of all, I do occasionally get
stable, margined or centered seedlings, and 'Sergeant Pepper' is a
seedling.  It did not come from a streaked plant, and is not a sport of
anything.  It was one of the first seedlings I ever selected, and at the
time I was not breeding with streakers. I have others that germinated
with margins or centers, but they have not been introduced.  Obviously
it's not as common as streaking, but it happens.

Second, 0017 is not "pretty stable", whatever that means,  I never said
it was.  I don't know why we wouldn't be having this conversation if it
didn't behave just like all the other streaked plants, that's the point. 
I'm not saying unstable streaked plants shouldn't be introduced.

Third, I have no intention of registering 'Graceland Memories' or
'Graceland Streaked' or a streaked 'Graceland' of any other name.  So I
pretty much can call it anything I want. 

Chick

Bill Meyer wrote:

  Hi Chick,
        The problem I have with that thinking is that you seem to see streaked
  plants as some different kind of animal, rather than just another type of
  hosta like the "stable" types. A different type altogether that apparently
  has no merits of its own. Why do you use the word "stable" as if it is a
  black-and-white thing? Stability is relative in hostas, and there are
  probably no hostas that are 100% stable. 'Sergeant Pepper' is a sport of
  either a gold or a light green seedling. I don't know if you ever saw or
  still have the solid-color plant it sported from, but seedlings don't
  normally appear with ready-made margins. Was the solid-color "parent"
  unstable? Obviously, since it sported to a "stable" form it must have been.
         We haven't made any efforts really to breed for stability in streaked
  plants. We just assumed that since the first ones that were named were
  fairly unstable (but not so unstable that they have disappeared after 20-30
  years) that all the others would be equally unstable. Your experience with
  0017 points out that some can be pretty stable as a streaked form or we
  wouldn't be having this discussion. I have some streaked plants too that
  have not come close to yielding a "stable" form after 10 years or more. They
  might some day, but then so might a lot of solid-color ones sport to an edge
  or even a streaked form. I can't say I know which might happen first. Some
  of the margin or center forms from streaked plants can also be very hard to
  stabilize so they don't keep reverting to streaked forms. In the 'Fortunei
  Hyacinthina' fields at Walters Gardens, plain old green 'Hyacinthina' sports
  like crazy with sports in at least one plant out of ten. That's more than
  some streaked forms manage. Dan can back me up on that since he was there
  too. Does that make FH a stable form or an unstable form?
         In my opinion, streaked forms are just another pattern, but one which
  has the added bonus of yielding streaked seedlings. I don't see any reason
  why they should be treated differently when it comes to naming them. Some,
  like 'Fascination', can make fairly stable garden plants for those who just
  like their looks. In the future, I think we'll see more streaked plants that
  are like 'Korean Snow' and stay streaked very well. We haven't really
  started breeding with that as a goal yet.
         I think you are just jumping through hoops trying to avoid naming
  them to support the concept that they are significantly different from other
  hostas in some way. You could just as easily use real names rather than
  xxxxxxxxxxxx Streaked to name your streaked introductions. Instead of
  'Graceland Streaked', which is not a legal name for registration purposes,
  you could call it 'Graceland Memories' or some such. Kevin Vaughn put out
  'Delta Dawn' some time ago but when Q and Z wanted to sell the streaked
  form, they asked him to name it and he called it 'Delta Force', thus keeping
  the connection. If you just name things this- or that- Streaked, you'll have
  to rename them later if you want to register them. It works the same way in
  reversed form too - If you like and name a streaked plant like 'Dorothy
  Benedict', you can't name a sport 'Dorothy Benedict Stable' and register it
  that way.
       That's why we decided not to put things like 'Graceland Streaked' in
  the HostaLibrary. They will only be renamed later so they can be registered,
  and the listing in the Library would have to be changed.
                                               ........Bill Meyer

    Ah, the inevitable challenge from Mr Meyer.  Don't you have anything to
    do?
    
    I'm trying to get my fall list out now, so I'm afraid I don't have too
    much time to argue with you on this one.
    
    Yes, 'Bridgewood 0017' is a name. I guess you got me on that one.
    
    I put a number on a streaked plant once I decide it's worth keeping so I
    can keep track of it's seedlings. I don't like to name them because they
    are unstable and will eventually change to a stable plant. Actually the
    plant is just labeled 0017, but if I do sell or give it to anyone, I
    don't think that's sufficient and would attach "Bridgewood". And I also
    don't care to debate whether 0017 is a number or a name. The reason I
    asked the question is that 0017 is one of my best breeders but has not
    stabilized yet and I don't want to give it a "real" name until it does.
    It's just my preference, but I would prefer to name the stable plant and
    refer to the streaked form as 'Stable Plant Streaked' or some such
    thing.  That way, there is a connection between the streaked and stable
    plant. '9944' stabilized and the margined form is now 'Graceland', '9944'
    never left my nursery and it became 'Graceland Streaked' and anyone can
    probably recognize the relationship.  If you disagree, which I'm sure you
    do, that's fine.
    
    I'm amazed by the prices people are paying for streaked plants that don't
    look like anything special to me, and I wonder if it's because they've
    been led to believe that streaking is unusual.  If I get around to
    planting all the seeds I take this year, I can produce literally
    thousands of streaked plants, but IMHO, unless they prove to be good
    breeders or stabilize to something interesting, which most of them don't,
    I don't see where the value comes from.  I hate to imply that I'm opposed
    to separating a sucker from his/her money, but for some reason this trend
    just bugs me.
    
    And so that's the reason I'm not a big fan of "naming" so many streakers.
    Maybe I should just shut up and start selling them too.  I can use the
    money as much as anyone.
    
    And actually, I don't have the same standards for stable plants. I've
    said many times before that I think don't think there's anything wrong
    with introducing plants that are not fantastic new breakthroughs in the
    world of hostas, as long as the plant is described as honestly as
    possible. And before you write a 3 page tome disputing my logic, remember
    I said I don't really care.  I know there are those who feel there are
    too many hostas, I just don't agree.
    
    As for 'Admiral Halsey', I agree with your implication that it shouldn't
    have been introduced and haven't sold it for years.  Surprisingly though,
    I still get calls from people in Minnesota and thereabouts asking if they
    can buy it because they saw it in someone's garden up there.  Apparently
    the creamy gold margin I saw when I named the plant is dependent on
    temperature, and some people up there like the plant. In most years it's
    just 'Patriot' around here. So sue me.  By the way, my catalog
    description of 'Admiral Halsey', when I did sell it, indicated that the
    color was much more apparent in cooler areas and ended with the
    following: "I don't know if the world needs another 'Patriot' variant,
    and I had planned to keep this one to myself, but people who have seen it
    at the nursery have asked for it."
    
    Chick
    
    Bill Meyer wrote:
    
      So Chick,
           I would assume that you are also not a big fan of naming margin,
      center, or solid-color plants if they were not truly unusual and

  outstanding

      for some reason too. Except maybe 'Admiral Halsey'. :-) The difference

  for

      streaked plants apparently is that must also give good offspring. It's

  not

      enough that they could be very attractive, have very stable streaking,

  be

      good growers, have a unique look, etc. Why do they have to meet

  standards

      higher than other types? Just wondering what the difference is in your

  eyes.

           Also, I'm not sure why you would think 'Bridgewood 0017' would not

  be a

      name. If it isn't a name, what is it?
                                           .......Bill Meyer
    
        Thanks Kevin,
    
        I have to admit that rules irritate me, but in this case I asked for

  it

        so I have only myself to blame.
    
        The reason I'm asking is that I am not a big fan of naming, nor or
        registering, streaked plants unless they are truly unusual and
        outstanding for some reason.  Obviously there are many who disagree
        because I see all kinds of plants being named that don't look any
        different than the hundreds of streaked plants I produce every year -
        thousands if you count the ones I throw out. I can't see any reason to
        introduce a streaked plant unless it's an outstanding breeder, and

  that

        doesn't mean just any streaked plant that will produce additional
        ordinary streaked plants.
    
        Anyway, I digress (does it seem that there's always a rant attached to
        my questions?).  I do have some streaked plants that I consider
        outstanding breeders and I have considered offering them for sale in

  the

        future.  Generally I number the seedlings I use for breeding and don't
        give them a name unless they stabilize into something I find
        interesting.  I think I was once told that I could not name a plant
        'Bridgewood 0017 ' legally because it didn't conform to the rules.  It
        would seem to me that if 'Apolo 13' is legal, then 'Bridgewood 0017'
        would be too.  Yes?
    
        Chick
    
            Giboshiman@aol.com         wrote:
    
          In a message dated 8/28/2004 2:36:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,

  chick@bridgewoodgardens.com         writes:

          Actually, I'm not bored.  Does it say anywhere in there whether

  digits

          are allowed in hosta names?  That's really all I was wondering

  about.

          Chick
    
          Chick I know it scares you when I send anything that relates to

  rules but

      in
    
          this case I think you will like the answer I am giving you to your
    
      question!
    
          The relevant sections ("articles") of the 2004 version of the code
    
      follow:
    
          19.15 For a cultivar name to be established on or after 1 January

  1996,

      its
    
          epithet must
          consist of no more than 30 characters (Roman letters, numbers,  and
    
      permitted
    
          punctuation marks or symbols) overall, excluding spaces and  the
    
      demarcating
    
          marks.
          Ex. 24.  After 1 January 1996 a name with the  cultivar epithet

  "Madame

      la
    
          Comtesse Oswald de Kerchove de Denterghem" could not  be

  established.

          19.16. A cultivar name may not be established if on or after 1

  January

      2004
    
          its epithet
          consists solely of a single letter or solely of Arabic or  Roman
    
      numerals.
    
          Ex. 25.  Names containing the epithets "K", "400", and  "MMIV"

  cannot be

          established, but the epithets "Hundred", "10 Downing Street",  "451

  Ocean

          Boulevard", "77 Sunset Strip", "Apollo 13", "Catch 22", "Henry

  VIII",

      "Pope Leo X",
    
          "4th July", and "Happy 21st Birthday" could be established.
    
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