hort.net Seasonal photo, (c) 2006 Christopher P. Lindsey, All Rights Reserved: do not copy
articles | gallery of plants | blog | tech blog | plant profiles | patents | mailing lists | top stories | links | shorturl service | tom clothier's archive0
 Navigation
Articles
Gallery of Plants
Blog
Tech Blog
Plant Profiles
Patents
Mailing Lists
    FAQ
    Netiquette
    Search ALL lists
    Search help
    Subscription info
Top Stories
Links
sHORTurl service
Tom Clothier's Archive
 Top Stories
Disease could hit Britain's trees hard

Ten of the best snowdrop cultivars

Plant protein database helps identify plant gene functions

Dendroclimatologists record history through trees

Potato beetle could be thwarted through gene manipulation

Hawaii expands coffee farm quarantine

Study explains flower petal loss

Unauthorized use of a plant doesn't invalidate it's patent

RSS story archive

Re: NUMBERS IN HOSTA NAMES


 Your're probably right Bill.  Like I said, I was just asking a
question,  not looking for an argument. I don't really care what anyone
else does. I guess I could argue with you about whether 'Sergeant Pepper'
is a sport or a seedling, or the line between unstable and "fairly
stable", but I frankly don't see what that has to do with anything.  I
just stated my opinion, and despite all the wisdom of your arguments, my
opinion hasn't changed a bit.  You've analyzed things about as far (I
hope) as they can be analyzed but I just don't see what difference it
makes. 

There is nothing wrong with selling streaked forms of 'Little Town Flirt'
or 'Lovely Rita' if someone wants to buy them.  For the right price you
can buy just about anything I have except my wife, my dog, and my
tractor.  There are times when I would entertain offers on one or two of
those, but not my tractor. I'll sell every streaked plant I have if
someone makes me an offer I can't refuse. There is a difference, in my
mind at least, in selling something somebody wants, and offering
something for sale.  In my opinion, the streaked forms of those two
plants have no value.  I just don't see why anyone needs them.  If you
want them, I'll sell them to you, and probably overcharge you for them,
but if I offer them for sale it implies that I think they are worth
selling, and I don't.

If someone gets hold of them and wants to put a name on them and sell
them, there's not much I can do about it.  I don't think that the fact
that there might be some dirtbag out there that would might introduce a
plant of mine without my permission is any justification for me to do it
just to beat them to the punch.

There are streaked plants that are worth introducing, and many more that
are not.  Just my opinion, and it's pretty obvious that it isn't shared
by everyone.  It is comforting to know though, that if I'm ever strapped
for cash I can whip up a couple million bucks worth of streaked seedlings
real quick.  Actually, I could probably make more than that if I wanted,
but I'm not a greedy man.

Chick

Bill Meyer wrote:

  Well Chick,
         To answer your question about people thinking streaked plants are a
  rarity, I doubt it. Bill Nash has been peddling and giving away his 'Let's
  Streak' seed everywhere for years so everyone that had a few dollars could
  raise some streaked seedlings. Older streaked plants like 'Iron Gate
  Supreme' and 'Swoosh' don't fetch more than $15 or so these days too. It's
  been that way for years. Generally newer streaked varieties go for a higher
  price because of scarcity. Most aren't TCed so they're OS to begin with (see
  your website for the difference in price between OS and TC of the same
  plant) and not all divisions of a streaked plant are suitable for sale if
  you want a happy customer. As for the TC ones, only a fairly small
  percentage of a streaked plant's TC's show good streaking, often less than
  half. This make the price higher for the good ones. That explains why people
  charge more for them. If people are willing to pay that amount, it might be
  that they want them for breeding, for collector value (including trading),
  or maybe they just like the way they look. If no one was willing to pay the
  higher prices, then the prices would either go down or no one would sell
  them.
         First item - Some people are of the opinion that seedlings which are
  chimeras of any type from the first leaf are still sports - just ones that
  happened very early in the plant's life. I agree with them unless evidence
  someday proves otherwise. That makes it a sport even though the normal
  solid-color plant ceased to exist.
         Second item - You said "0017 is one of my best breeders but has not
  stabilized yet" which I take to mean as it remaining streaked and not
  forming any margin or edge types. This would make it a plant in which the
  streaking is fairly stable, say at least as good as 'Fascination'. A very
  unstable streaked plant would be 'Flamboyant' which has a very strong
  tendency to form a margin and give up being streaked. "Unstable" and
  "streaked" do not mean the same thing.
         Third item - If you don't give proper names to your plants someday
  someone else probably will if they are getting around and stay popular. This
  has happened before and will again. Calling a plant xxxxxxx Streaked is not
  giving it a name as far as registration is concerned. If you change your
  mind and want to register it, or die and someone else wants to register it,
  it will need a real name. Why put plants out without giving them real and
  legal names? The restrictions aren't that bad. It's actually fairly
  difficult to find a name that wouldn't be allowed.
         BTW, I think a lot of people would be interested in a streaked
  'Little Town Flirt' or a streaked 'Lovely Rita'. What would be wrong with
  selling them if people wanted them? If the stable forms are great plants,
  what's wrong with the streaked forms, especially if they're fertile? It
  doesn't make any sense to me not to sell the streaked form of a plant that
  is good enough to name, except maybe if it is too unstable to stay streaked
  for long or it's infertile. People are smart. They'll decide for themselves
  if they want a plant, so if you like the stable form, what's so unlikeable
  about the streaked form?
                                                   .......Bill Meyer

    As I said, I really don't care if anyone agrees, it's just what I think
    and its why I haven't introduced a single streaked plant out of the
    thousands and thousands I have grown.  You can introduce as many as you
    like.  I happen to be a great fan of 'Sea Prize' and have no problem with
    it being in the trade because I think it is a great breeder.  I may name
    and introduce some of my favorite breeders if I have a surplus and I may
    give them a name of their own if I feel like it.  I'm not making any
    rules here, just stating an opinion.
    
    It seems that you are always searching for some ulterior motive in my
    pronouncements.  I'm not jumping through hoops to support anything. I
    just explained the way I handle these plants.
    
    I'm not sure I am making a distinction between streaked and unstreaked
    plants.  It just seems to me that a plant shouldn't be introduced just
    because it's streaked any more than a seedling should be introduced just
    because it's blue, or variegated for that matter.  I'm not a great fan of
    introducing all these streaked plants because it seems to me that nobody
    would be paying these rather unusual prices for ordinary streaked plants
    if they were familiar with how common it is, and I wonder if these plants
    would be introduced if they brought what they were worth. If these plants
    were selling for ten or fifteen bucks, I wouldn't have a problem with
    it.  And I'm not talking about every streaked plant that has a name. Some
    are better than others, some, to me at least, don't show me a thing.  I
    didn't say the practice should be banned, I just said I'm not a big fan
    of it. I think that's ok for me to have an opinion without looking for
    ulterior motives.  Far be it from me to make rules.
    
    You jump to a few conclusions below.  First of all, I do occasionally get
    stable, margined or centered seedlings, and 'Sergeant Pepper' is a
    seedling.  It did not come from a streaked plant, and is not a sport of
    anything.  It was one of the first seedlings I ever selected, and at the
    time I was not breeding with streakers. I have others that germinated
    with margins or centers, but they have not been introduced.  Obviously
    it's not as common as streaking, but it happens.
    
    Second, 0017 is not "pretty stable", whatever that means,  I never said
    it was.  I don't know why we wouldn't be having this conversation if it
    didn't behave just like all the other streaked plants, that's the point.
    I'm not saying unstable streaked plants shouldn't be introduced.
    
    Third, I have no intention of registering 'Graceland Memories' or
    'Graceland Streaked' or a streaked 'Graceland' of any other name.  So I
    pretty much can call it anything I want.
    
    Chick
    
    Bill Meyer wrote:
    
      Hi Chick,
            The problem I have with that thinking is that you seem to see

  streaked

      plants as some different kind of animal, rather than just another type

  of

      hosta like the "stable" types. A different type altogether that

  apparently

      has no merits of its own. Why do you use the word "stable" as if it is a
      black-and-white thing? Stability is relative in hostas, and there are
      probably no hostas that are 100% stable. 'Sergeant Pepper' is a sport of
      either a gold or a light green seedling. I don't know if you ever saw or
      still have the solid-color plant it sported from, but seedlings don't
      normally appear with ready-made margins. Was the solid-color "parent"
      unstable? Obviously, since it sported to a "stable" form it must have

  been.

             We haven't made any efforts really to breed for stability in

  streaked

      plants. We just assumed that since the first ones that were named were
      fairly unstable (but not so unstable that they have disappeared after

  20-30

      years) that all the others would be equally unstable. Your experience

  with

      0017 points out that some can be pretty stable as a streaked form or we
      wouldn't be having this discussion. I have some streaked plants too that
      have not come close to yielding a "stable" form after 10 years or more.

  They

      might some day, but then so might a lot of solid-color ones sport to an

  edge

      or even a streaked form. I can't say I know which might happen first.

  Some

      of the margin or center forms from streaked plants can also be very hard

  to

      stabilize so they don't keep reverting to streaked forms. In the

  'Fortunei

      Hyacinthina' fields at Walters Gardens, plain old green 'Hyacinthina'

  sports

      like crazy with sports in at least one plant out of ten. That's more

  than

      some streaked forms manage. Dan can back me up on that since he was

  there

      too. Does that make FH a stable form or an unstable form?
             In my opinion, streaked forms are just another pattern, but one

  which

      has the added bonus of yielding streaked seedlings. I don't see any

  reason

      why they should be treated differently when it comes to naming them.

  Some,

      like 'Fascination', can make fairly stable garden plants for those who

  just

      like their looks. In the future, I think we'll see more streaked plants

  that

      are like 'Korean Snow' and stay streaked very well. We haven't really
      started breeding with that as a goal yet.
             I think you are just jumping through hoops trying to avoid naming
      them to support the concept that they are significantly different from

  other

      hostas in some way. You could just as easily use real names rather than
      xxxxxxxxxxxx Streaked to name your streaked introductions. Instead of
      'Graceland Streaked', which is not a legal name for registration

  purposes,

      you could call it 'Graceland Memories' or some such. Kevin Vaughn put

  out

      'Delta Dawn' some time ago but when Q and Z wanted to sell the streaked
      form, they asked him to name it and he called it 'Delta Force', thus

  keeping

      the connection. If you just name things this- or that- Streaked, you'll

  have

      to rename them later if you want to register them. It works the same way

  in

      reversed form too - If you like and name a streaked plant like 'Dorothy
      Benedict', you can't name a sport 'Dorothy Benedict Stable' and register

  it

      that way.
           That's why we decided not to put things like 'Graceland Streaked'

  in

      the HostaLibrary. They will only be renamed later so they can be

  registered,

      and the listing in the Library would have to be changed.
                                                   ........Bill Meyer
    
        Ah, the inevitable challenge from Mr Meyer.  Don't you have anything

  to

        do?
    
        I'm trying to get my fall list out now, so I'm afraid I don't have too
        much time to argue with you on this one.
    
        Yes, 'Bridgewood 0017' is a name. I guess you got me on that one.
    
        I put a number on a streaked plant once I decide it's worth keeping so

  I

        can keep track of it's seedlings. I don't like to name them because

  they

        are unstable and will eventually change to a stable plant. Actually

  the

        plant is just labeled 0017, but if I do sell or give it to anyone, I
        don't think that's sufficient and would attach "Bridgewood". And I

  also

        don't care to debate whether 0017 is a number or a name. The reason I
        asked the question is that 0017 is one of my best breeders but has not
        stabilized yet and I don't want to give it a "real" name until it

  does.

        It's just my preference, but I would prefer to name the stable plant

  and

        refer to the streaked form as 'Stable Plant Streaked' or some such
        thing.  That way, there is a connection between the streaked and

  stable

        plant. '9944' stabilized and the margined form is now 'Graceland',

  '9944'

        never left my nursery and it became 'Graceland Streaked' and anyone

  can

        probably recognize the relationship.  If you disagree, which I'm sure

  you

        do, that's fine.
    
        I'm amazed by the prices people are paying for streaked plants that

  don't

        look like anything special to me, and I wonder if it's because they've
        been led to believe that streaking is unusual.  If I get around to
        planting all the seeds I take this year, I can produce literally
        thousands of streaked plants, but IMHO, unless they prove to be good
        breeders or stabilize to something interesting, which most of them

  don't,

        I don't see where the value comes from.  I hate to imply that I'm

  opposed

        to separating a sucker from his/her money, but for some reason this

  trend

        just bugs me.
    
        And so that's the reason I'm not a big fan of "naming" so many

  streakers.

        Maybe I should just shut up and start selling them too.  I can use the
        money as much as anyone.
    
        And actually, I don't have the same standards for stable plants. I've
        said many times before that I think don't think there's anything wrong
        with introducing plants that are not fantastic new breakthroughs in

  the

        world of hostas, as long as the plant is described as honestly as
        possible. And before you write a 3 page tome disputing my logic,

  remember

        I said I don't really care.  I know there are those who feel there are
        too many hostas, I just don't agree.
    
        As for 'Admiral Halsey', I agree with your implication that it

  shouldn't

        have been introduced and haven't sold it for years.  Surprisingly

  though,

        I still get calls from people in Minnesota and thereabouts asking if

  they

        can buy it because they saw it in someone's garden up there.

  Apparently

        the creamy gold margin I saw when I named the plant is dependent on
        temperature, and some people up there like the plant. In most years

  it's

        just 'Patriot' around here. So sue me.  By the way, my catalog
        description of 'Admiral Halsey', when I did sell it, indicated that

  the

        color was much more apparent in cooler areas and ended with the
        following: "I don't know if the world needs another 'Patriot' variant,
        and I had planned to keep this one to myself, but people who have seen

  it

        at the nursery have asked for it."
    
        Chick
    
        Bill Meyer wrote:
    
          So Chick,
               I would assume that you are also not a big fan of naming

  margin,

          center, or solid-color plants if they were not truly unusual and
    
      outstanding
    
          for some reason too. Except maybe 'Admiral Halsey'. :-) The

  difference

      for
    
          streaked plants apparently is that must also give good offspring.

  It's

      not
    
          enough that they could be very attractive, have very stable

  streaking,

      be
    
          good growers, have a unique look, etc. Why do they have to meet
    
      standards
    
          higher than other types? Just wondering what the difference is in

  your

      eyes.
    
               Also, I'm not sure why you would think 'Bridgewood 0017' would

  not

      be a
    
          name. If it isn't a name, what is it?
                                               .......Bill Meyer
    
            Thanks Kevin,
    
            I have to admit that rules irritate me, but in this case I asked

  for

      it
    
            so I have only myself to blame.
    
            The reason I'm asking is that I am not a big fan of naming, nor or
            registering, streaked plants unless they are truly unusual and
            outstanding for some reason.  Obviously there are many who

  disagree

            because I see all kinds of plants being named that don't look any
            different than the hundreds of streaked plants I produce every

  year -

            thousands if you count the ones I throw out. I can't see any

  reason to

            introduce a streaked plant unless it's an outstanding breeder, and
    
      that
    
            doesn't mean just any streaked plant that will produce additional
            ordinary streaked plants.
    
            Anyway, I digress (does it seem that there's always a rant

  attached to

            my questions?).  I do have some streaked plants that I consider
            outstanding breeders and I have considered offering them for sale

  in

      the
    
            future.  Generally I number the seedlings I use for breeding and

  don't

            give them a name unless they stabilize into something I find
            interesting.  I think I was once told that I could not name a

  plant

            'Bridgewood 0017 ' legally because it didn't conform to the rules.

  It

            would seem to me that if 'Apolo 13' is legal, then 'Bridgewood

  0017'

            would be too.  Yes?
    
            Chick
    
                    Giboshiman@aol.com             wrote:
    
              In a message dated 8/28/2004 2:36:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
    
          chick@bridgewoodgardens.com             writes:
    
              Actually, I'm not bored.  Does it say anywhere in there whether
    
      digits
    
              are allowed in hosta names?  That's really all I was wondering
    
      about.
    
              Chick
    
              Chick I know it scares you when I send anything that relates to
    
      rules but
    
          in
    
              this case I think you will like the answer I am giving you to

  your

          question!
    
              The relevant sections ("articles") of the 2004 version of the

  code

          follow:
    
              19.15 For a cultivar name to be established on or after 1

  January

      1996,
    
          its
    
              epithet must
              consist of no more than 30 characters (Roman letters, numbers,

  and

          permitted
    
              punctuation marks or symbols) overall, excluding spaces and  the
    
          demarcating
    
              marks.
              Ex. 24.  After 1 January 1996 a name with the  cultivar epithet
    
      "Madame
    
          la
    
              Comtesse Oswald de Kerchove de Denterghem" could not  be
    
      established.
    
              19.16. A cultivar name may not be established if on or after 1
    
      January
    
          2004
    
              its epithet
              consists solely of a single letter or solely of Arabic or  Roman
    
          numerals.
    
              Ex. 25.  Names containing the epithets "K", "400", and  "MMIV"
    
      cannot be
    
              established, but the epithets "Hundred", "10 Downing Street",

  "451

      Ocean
    
              Boulevard", "77 Sunset Strip", "Apollo 13", "Catch 22", "Henry
    
      VIII",
    
          "Pope Leo X",
    
              "4th July", and "Happy 21st Birthday" could be established.
    
              ----------------------------------------------------------------

  ----

      -
    
              To sign-off this list, send email to

  majordomo@hort.net        

      with the
    
              message text UNSUBSCRIBE HOSTA-OPEN
    
            ------------------------------------------------------------------

  ---

            To sign-off this list, send email to             majordomo@hort.net          

  with

      the
    
            message text UNSUBSCRIBE HOSTA-OPEN
    
          --------------------------------------------------------------------

  -

          To sign-off this list, send email to           majordomo@hort.net          

  with the

          message text UNSUBSCRIBE HOSTA-OPEN
    
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        To sign-off this list, send email to         majordomo@hort.net         with

  the

        message text UNSUBSCRIBE HOSTA-OPEN
    
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      To sign-off this list, send email to       majordomo@hort.net       with the
      message text UNSUBSCRIBE HOSTA-OPEN
    
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    To sign-off this list, send email to     majordomo@hort.net     with the
    message text UNSUBSCRIBE HOSTA-OPEN

  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
  To sign-off this list, send email to   majordomo@hort.net   with the
  message text UNSUBSCRIBE HOSTA-OPEN

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the
message text UNSUBSCRIBE HOSTA-OPEN





 © 1995-2015 Mallorn Computing, Inc.All Rights Reserved.
Our Privacy Statement
Other Mailing lists | Author Index | Date Index | Subject Index | Thread Index