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Re: MY proof is not yours?

Hosta Openers:

I see from Ben's post of 4 AM this morning that he pleads with Andrew to
accept a green edge to a yellow plant as proof of mitotic recombination
as a causal factor for this type of sport. He claims that this
explanation is his conclusion as an experienced geneticist.

If someone thinks he is wrong, then that person must offer an alternative
because that is the way science works ( So now he is making new rules for
science as he goes along).

Ben explains that his conclusion is based on all of the data in his
Booklet, especially the sequence of sports. If further confirmation is
needed, then ask Dr. Kevin Vaughn since he is the only American with
experience in both Genetics and Hosta.

How insulting! And how revealing! Ben does not recognize that for two
weeks now, several people competent in Genetics and knowledgeable in
Hosta have reviewed his three articles on causes of sports and have
arrived at the conclusion that Ben's causal factors are in error,
over-simplified and incomplete. We have tried to draw Ben's attention to
the fact that conventional wisdom  and current status of information  are
based on the work of Dr. Kevin Vaughn and other scientists that he cites
(Dermen, Stewart, Tilney-Bassett and others). Among the "others" is Dr.
Michael Marcotrigiano whose principle advisor for his doctoral thesis
was Dr.Robert Stewart who has published a dozen or more papers with Dr.
Haig Dermen (USDA). Dr. Marcotrigiano and I are both alumni of the Hort.
Dept of the Univ. of Maryland. We have been in correspondence off and on
for about two years now on variegation in Hosta. He is planning some new
breeding work in hostas and I have promised to assist him in acquiring
additional germ plasm. He is very well acquainted with Hostas. I consider
him to be a world authority in variegation in plants, having knowledge
and experience of many genera.

Alternative explanations employing conventional wisdom for the origin of
chimeras has been submitted in sumary form  in this discussion. Ben has
rejected them. Why? Perhaps because IF he accepts conventional
wisdom/current understandings as causes of sports, his Booklet then
contains misinformation. Those who have bought his Booklet may then ask
for their money back .

Ben suggests that SEQUENCE of sports is important in understanding causal
factors. Let us look at some sequences that Ben uses. On page 98 of AHJ,
Vol.27, No. 1 Ben uses H. sieboldiana example of sequences of sports to
make some points about sport origins.He indicates that 'Golden Nugget' is
derived from 'Frances Williams' (this is incorrect); that 'Golden Wheels'
is derived from 'Wagon Wheels' ( this is incorrect); and that 'Spinning
Wheels' is derived from 'Golden Wheels'(this is incorrect also). If a
scientist wishes to prove a point, at least his data should be correct,
otherwize his proof is invalid.

So Ben suggests that Dr. Kevin Vaughn, who is the only person in the U.S.
who has experience in Genetics and Hosta, conduct a post review of his
three articles perhaps? That is an excellent suggestion. Perhaps Dr.
Vaughn and Dr. Zonneveld might collaborate and  co- author a rewrite of
the three articles. If not, then perhaps Dr. Marcotrigiano might give us
his views on Ben's unconventional theories of the origins of sports.

Jim Hawes

zonneveld wrote:

> Andrew
> Why dont you accept my greenedge to a yellow plant as proof? Mit
> rec gives a very good explanation for the observation,. This is not a
> bold statement just a conclusion of an experienced geneticist
> based on observation of the phenomenon. If someone thinks I am
> wrong he must offfer an alternative, that is the way science works.
> My conclusion is based on all the data in my booklet especially
> the SEQUENCE of  sports.  If someone really wants confirmation
> of a fellow american ask Kevin Vaughn He is the only one with
> experience in both genetics and Hosta
> Ben J.M.Zonneveld
> Clusius lab pobox 9505
> 2300 RA Leiden
> The Netherlands
> mintemp-16C(5F)
> Zonneveld@RULbim.LeidenUniv.NL
> Fax: 31-71-5274999
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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