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Re: Final Conclusions

This post is repeated because it was found to have been mis-sent.

Subject:   Final conclusion on mit rec
          Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:16:46 +0100
          "zonneveld" <zonneveld@RULBIM.Leidenuniv.nl>

read this from Marcotrigiano He clearly states that mitotic
recombination is not uncommon
Asked specifically about mit rec he agreed too!
So I am happy to move on as long as it is clear now
1.That Marcotrigiano , based on the results of crosses I provided
concludes that it is a nuclear character. 2. That Marcotrigiano
agrees that mit rec is not uncommon and he agreed on mit rec ( =
(somatic)crossing over) as an explanation for a green edge
appearing in a yellow plant.
From:                   "Michael Marcotrigiano"
To:                     <zonneveld@RULBIM.Leidenuniv.nl>
Subject:                Re: codominant, yellow leaved hostas

As you can see by my response I DID say that on a yellow
background leaf it is possible that crossing over yields variegation. I
am surprised that we do not see 'twin spots' on a regular basis with
yellow hosta since somatic crossing over is not that uncommon.

Bens response :  I also tried to explain to them that mitotic
recombination is the most likely explanation for a  sport with a
green edge and a yellow center, originating in a fully yellow plant.
Do you agree on this too?

I'd tend to agree with you. Unless it started out mosaic with a
mottled yellow and green leaf and later sorted out to marginal.
Then, it could still be a plastid mutation to yellow plastid. The best
way to tell of course is with detailed inheritance studies.
( Ben: As I have done by making several thousand crosses a year)
Ben J.M.Zonneveld
Clusius lab pobox 9505
2300 RA Leiden
The Netherlands
Fax: 31-71-5274999
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H osta Scholars still with the discussion:

This is not the final conclusion as any fair observer can see for
 I address my remarks to Ben with the world also observing.

Since no other participants of the discussion group were in attendance
in your email  discussion with Dr. Marcotrigiano, we have only your
version of the email exchange to go on and perhaps we do not have  the
whole exchange. You have obviously picked out several portions of the
exchange to emphasize, leaving out other portions which do not
strengthen your arguments. For example, when Dr. Marcotrigiano states
that mitotic recombination is not uncommon , he means that it occurs in
plants in general. There is no disagreement with this statement. But we
are discussing if it specifically causes variegation in hostas as you
claim in your Rule of Thumb..

You stated ..."Asked specifically about mit rec he agreed too".

My question is ..what does this English sentence mean? I speakseveral
languages besides English and I can not even guess what you are trying
say. The sentence is too ambiguous to have one  specific meaning.

You stated... " So I am happy to move on as long as it is clear that:
 1. Marcotrigiano agrees that mit rec is a nuclear character.

My comments to you are...It is necessay to explain in simple English
what you mean by "mit rec is a nuclear character" so that the ordinary
paticipant or observer in this discussion understands what you are
saying. The use of genetic terminology  or jargon is not an adequate
explanation or proof of anything. Instead,  it is often  used to try to
IMPRESS people, not to EXPRESS or explain an idea. We are all
intelligent people on this listserv but we are not all mind readers. Nor

do we participate  everyday in translations of genetic terms into
understandable English. This is your job if you expect participants to
understand you. If you refuse to try to do this, then we will draw our
own conclusions about your messages.

You continued and stated.. (part of 2)"And he agreed on mit rec as an
for  a green edge appearing on a yellow plant". That is not the way I
read what Dr. Marcotrigiano said. I read that he said he "tended" to
agree (with you)
that  it is "possible" . He did not say it commonly happens. What he
told me in a personal post was that he agreed (with you) re" the
possiblity for yellow leaves to be (a) codominant nuclear mutation, but
alas, breeding data is the key to science and so far, I haven't seen

The codominant nuclear genetic character which both you and Dr.
Marcotrigiano were discussing  is the same research subject matter that
Dr. Vaughn conducted and reported on in AHS  Bulletin 13 (1982) .Our
discussion group has not yet discussed this as an agenda item, but we
can do so next if you wish. It appears that you are trying to rush
events, trying to agree about it with Dr. Marcotrigiano in your own
manner,and not discussing it with the discussion group in adequate
detail for all to understand what is being discussed.

So, NOT SO FAST, Ben.Let's examine this carefully and in detail. Let's
use proper English, full sentences, with punctuation marks where
appropriate, terms that are well defined and let us describe the
processes that are involved with all details and circumstance that
determine our conclusions.

I personally will not be convinced by the use of smoke,mirrors and fast
talk. I expect good descriptions, good data, good analysis and good
conclusions. I reject any conclusions that do no meet these criteria.
And I am probably one of many with the same opinion.

Jim Hawes

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