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Re: 'Aristocrat' and TC

> Glen Williams wrote:
> >
> >   Last year I purchased two TCed  'Aristocrat' seedlings. It is a sport of
> > 'Halcyon' I believe. It was a nice blue with a narrow perfect cream edge.
> > By perfect I mean a very even border. It had good growth and all emerging
> > leaves  had the same exacting pattern . I mistakeningly saw the  even
> > border as stable. Both plants this year have very irregular  borders
> > extending well into the middle of the plant often creating a third color
> > where an apparent overlapping of layers occurs.  I liked the old version.
> > Has anyone had a similar experience.
> >   Glen Williams Vt. zone 5a
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@mallorn.com with the
> > message text UNSUBSCRIBE HOSTA-OPENGlen -- and all
> Your massage points out another reason why it is so hard to properly
> "cull" TC plants at a young age.  The adult vareigation, may not show at
> first, also any varieables that may not be "true to form", will be hard
> to pick out.  On an addtional note-- Wes Hyde and I looked at my one
> and two year old TC beds yesterday. Out of 24 Summer Music, I have one
> with vwer wide deep green edges, that is growing at a rate four times
> faster than the rest.  I have one that is all light green.  Out of 16 Tc
> Grand Tiara, purchase two years ago, I have two all yellow.  Out of 48
> June, I have 10 with very narrow edges, and one with white streaks.  I
> could go on with this kind with this for other Tc material, but you get
> the point.  It is simply not true that TC material sports at the same
> rate as "naturals"  The theory sounds great, but I can (and have over
> many years) demonstrated otherwise.  You can believe me that I do not get
> that rate of "sporting" form my established material.  I would be
> intrested to hear from any of you who have bought young Tc material, and
> have compaited the resulting plant, with what it is supposed to look
> like.
> Ran Lydell
> Eagle Bay Hosta Gardens
> 10749 Bennett Rd.
> Dunkirk,  NY  14048
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@mallorn.com with the
Ran, Glen and others interested in sports,

Ran, you made the statement in your post to Glen that "it is not true
that TC material  sports at the same rate as naturals.....you can
believe me that I do not get that rate of sporting from my established

I believe that you are misinterpreting and misstating what you are
Rate of sporting means to me (although I do not use it as a verb) the
number of sports that occur in a given population over time. Let us go
through micropropagation of a hypothetical clone.

In tissue culturing an OS plant, one may duplicate this clone in the
first transfer and produce a half dozen proliferations identical to the
parent plant. When these six explants are retransferred again, you may
have eight proliferation of each (or 6 x 8= 48) or 48 identical
propagules identical to the parent plant. In the third transfer these 48
proliferations may produce 7 propagules each or 336 propagules identical
to the patent.

On the fourth transfer something special happens. Of the total, 335
propagules produce seven shoots each identical to the parent (335 x
7=2245). One of the 336 propagules produces a sport that is
different...so different that it is impossible to distinguish at this
stage of growth and development.

On the fifth transfer, 2245 propagules may produce 15,708 propagules
identical to the parent plant and the one sport produces seven sports
different from the parent plant. So at this point the score is 15,708
identical to 7 different. These seven will be rogueds as soon as it  is
discovered that they are significantly different from the "desirable ",
true to form type.

If you were able to propagate by division 15,708 divisions of your OS
plant, you would , in all likelihood, have the same number of true to
form types and the same number of sports as in TC if the sports occurred
within the same timeframe. It is my opinion that the rate of changes
(mutations) over time, in and ouside TC, is the same. I have not seen
any evidence to prove that it is different.

What matters is WHEN the sports occur. If they occur EARLY in the 
process of dividing the plants as they grow in TC, then of course you
will have more sports present because you have more plants in the
population in the process of possible change (production of sports). In
the garden you are not dealing with such numbers and do not notice as
many sports. If sports occur LATE in the TC process, your numbers are
further reduced. The skill of a lab operator depends on his ability to
see sports early, rogue sports and avoid propagating sports. All
propagators discard individual cultures after about two years to avoid
just these problems.

I hope I have explained why the timing of the occurence of sports is the
explanation of how different cultivars may act differently in different
labs. It is largely a matter of chance  IF and WHEN sports occur. This
affects the "yield" of desirable forms in any given culture being
micropropagated. With streaked forms the yield of desired forms would be
low (in the 15 to 20 % range) as explained by Zilis in the case of
H.'Yellow Splash' and Scolnik in the case of H.'Spilt Milk'. Other labs
may report on occasion 100 percent true to form with relatively stable
variegated cultivars, green or yellow forms.

I had planned to put these examples in my Essay on "Culls from TC", but
I have responded  as I have at this time to try to clarify some
misunderstandings and misinterpretations about "rates of sporting"
between TC and 'naturals". BTW, do you believe that TC is not a part of

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