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Re: Orange vs Pink & methyl-alcohol treatment of beta-carotene

  • Subject: Re: Orange vs Pink & methyl-alcohol treatment of beta-carotene
  • From: "irischap" <irischapman@aim.com>
  • Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:58:12 -0000

The lycopene there is for real. It is a bit of an optical illusion as
the carotene and the lycopene blend together for the eye. When I do an
extraction with a whole yellow flower there is a bit of carotene
yellow left in the petal, but no conversion to lycopene. Also when an
extraction with an orange petal is compared to the extraction from a
yellow petal the colours are for all intense and purposes, identical.
what is left behind, is very different.

The whole petal peel is not as effective in removing pigments (even
with heating) as the cold morter and pestle method, but the pictures
with the whole petals are more dramatic. The results are the same.

Helsman, from my file photos is basically an apricop/pink blend, not
really an orange, so it may not have any ya genes. It is from pink
breeding with two apricot/pink grandparents. It is most likely one of
those that have an incomplete blockage of conversion of lycopene to
beta-carotene. I eliminate these types from my test crosses, and don't
use them. That is why you got a pink from the self polination. There
shouldn't be any yellows from it (in this case the only possible
yellow would be the alternate yellow with tangerine beard)as it just
does not have the genes.

To my eyes the lutin yellow marigolds, even the cultivar Crackerjack,
which is the darkest, just looks dark gold, not orange. But I'm very
sensitive to colour nuances and can detect the tttT from the ttTT. To
me the orange of orange fruits and also deep gold. The orange candula
look orange. There is a recent study (2005) comparing orange cultivars
to comparable yellow cultivars. Even the yellow ones had only about
3.5% of their cartenoids as beta-carotene. The consistent diffences
between the two groups resided in several different pigments, mainly
several forms of lycopene. I can't give you any more details as it is
on my main computer, which crashed this am, and I'm currently on the
laptop and don't have the files here. Do look it up, it is a very
intersting study. A good example of an orange flower from a mix of
lycopene and a yellow carotenoid.

I will be getting the final supplies to set up a chromatography lab
next week, so I should be able to do some better research this year,
time allowing.

Chuck Chapman

--- In iris-photos@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Meckenstock" <dmeck@...> wrote:
> Chuck,
> Thanks for the photo, I will have to get back to you on this, The late
> snows this year has really set my SDB irises back. I am not sure I
> will see all the F1s I would have seen without all this crazy weather.
> In fact it is snowing here as I write this (13 APR 07).
> A couple of things come to mind when I see the photo. First, there is
> enough lycopene in the treated petal that it should be visible in the
> untreated petal which it isn't. So that leaves us with where did that
> much lycopene come from?
> I am wondering if the double rings in the beta-carotene molecule
> aren't broken in the boiling process and thus reverting back to
> lycopene. I guess one way to check this would be to boil some carrots
> in methyl-alcohol and see if they turn red.
> I have one flower out from a Helmsman (orange) self pollination and it
> is pink. This tells me Helmsman is probably TTtt, oooo. But I don't
> have any more seedlings blooming and with this snow, I am not sure I
> am going to get a handle on what is going on genetic-wise this year.
> I would certainly be surprised to get yellow to segregate out of this
> self. This would boost your idea that orange is a mix of lycopene and
> some of the yellow carotenoids. But it also could mean that orange is
> a high dose of lutein in which case we both would be wrong. Recall,
> the difference in orange and yellow flowers in marigolds is due to the
> concentration of lutein.
> Dan
> --- In iris-photos@yahoogroups.com, irischapman@ wrote:
> >
> > Here is a photo of an extraction from the orange iris Thai Orange.
> As you can see after the majority of the carotenes are removed by
> being boiled in metyl alcohol there is a significant amount of
> lycopene left behind. Probably as much as is in the most saturated
> lycopene pink. This is the same in all the orange iris I have examined
> by this method. All orange iris have four "t" genes. An examination of
> pedagres using the check list will confirm this.
> >
> > Further post to follow.
> >
> > Chuck Chapman

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