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  • Subject: [iris-photos] Re: HYB - UMBRATA
  • From: "Paul Black" <midamerg@earthlink.net>
  • Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 01:13:17 -0000

Hi Chad,
Here I am with foot in mouth again.  I reread Linda's letter #24631
talk group and she says "jokingly" referred to the pattern as 
"UMBRATA" and not UMBATA as I wrote.  Without wading back through the 
archives to figure out why this designation came about, it does seem 
like it was a term to lesten the description of such patterns.  It 
seems this is the way pattern names get started.  I won't carry that 
any futher.  There are so many variations of this sort of patterning. 
 Some have a very confined, distinct band as does Copatonic and then 
to the very shaded sorts such as Honky Tonk Blues.  No, I'm not 
suggesting that they are the same pattern and for sure probably not 
controlled by the same genetics.  

Just as a side note.  Quite a few have suggested that Honky Tonk
derives from the plicata pattern.  I am one of them that thinks that 
this is at least part of the derivation.  I made a lengthy cross of 
HTB X plicata to see what the proportions of plicatas to blends to 
self turns out to be.  

You do get a wide variation in expressed colors with the addition of 
increasing amounts of anthocyanin and carotenoid pigments. The 
variation is infinite as you would expect. From what I have seen, the 
band doesn't necessarily have to echo the standards color.  There are 
examples in Bryce Williamson's work where the standards are pink and 
the falls white with amber to apricot bands.  O.Brown's older Bold 
Accent had gold standards, purple falls with plum band.  The
have little to no anthocyanin.  The falls are purple with a band 
probably close to the standards color imposed on the purple which 
creates the visual effect of plum.  If Tom Johnson and Copatonic were 
combined, I would expect a rather wide assortment of violet, blue, 
purple tones on through the brown to wine tones of Copatonic with a 
high proportion of red/orange beards.  

In order to adequately assess these types of patterns, someone would 
have to sort through and figure out what the variations are and which 
ones seem to be genetically linked.  From here, someone could begin
trace back into history and try to figure out the sources for these 
varying patterns and whether they have a similar heritage or really 
divergent backgrounds.  As I hinted at before, the TB gene pool has 
become so mixed that it is becoming incresingly harder to trace a 
particular pattern back to a single source.  There are too many 
interactions that have taken place along the way.

Paul Black
Zone 8  Raining in Salem, Oregon 

--- In iris-photos@egroups.com, Chad Schroter <chad.schroter@q...> 
> 	I had to reread the original message before a few things sank 
> In looking at these bands they appear to always show the color of 
> standards, which could be termed the 'background' color. In Barry's 
> I see variants which are dark blue as your example with minimal 
> etc., more reddish purple (maroon or deep rose) reflecting more
> carotenoids/less antho and also brownish - reflecting a small dose 
> antho's and strong carotenoid. So the fall edge rim pattern does
> to be selective of one source of pigment vs. another. When crosses 
are made
> where each parent carries this pattern and both also contain the 
antho and
> carotenoid pigments do the seedlings show the pattern in several 
color forms
> ? For example I'm wondering if a Tom Johnson x Copatonic cross
> some offspring that looked like Copatonic (in a range of colors) or 
> they be restricted to blues like your seedling ?
> Chad Schroter
> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>From: Paul Black [mailto:midamerg@e...]
> >>>Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 12:46 PM
> >>>To: iris-photos@egroups.com
> >>>Subject: [iris-photos] Re: HYB - UMBATA
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Hi Chad,
> >>>This is also a new term for me.  It is a term that evidently
> >>>about in some of the earlier iris talk discussions.  My first 
> >>>encounter with it was a message from Linda Mann.  Linda, 
> >>>maybe you can 
> >>>cue us as to its origin.  I think it is one of those tentative 
> >>>descriptions given to a pattern to help aid in making the 
> >>>easier. 
> >>>
> >>>Paul Black
> >>>Zone 8  Salem, Oregon
> >>>
> >>>--- In iris-photos@egroups.com, Chad Schroter 
> >>>wrote:
> >>>> 	This is a new term for me, "Umbata"...  I ordered something 
> >>>from
> >>>> Barry called 'Touch of Mahogany', it is out of Copatonic. 
> >>>shows this
> >>>> same pattern and color (coffee brown with a bold burgundy 
> >>>center on 
> >>>the
> >>>> falls) as Copatonic, however there is also a spot or flush in 
> >>>center of
> >>>> the Falls which is pale violet. There is no 'blending' of the 
> >>>burgundy and
> >>>> violet either. My guess is that a gene has suppressed all 
> >>>in the
> >>>> center fall spot area except for the pale violet
> >>>meaning
> >>>> the burgundy area is a combination of pale violet and some 
> >>>carotenoids ? 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Chad Schroter
> >>>> Los Gatos CA Zone 9
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>> >>>From: PAUL BLACK [mailto:midamerg@e...]
> >>>> >>>Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 6:11 PM
> >>>> >>>To: iris-photos@egroups.com
> >>>> >>>Subject: [iris-photos] RE: HYB - UMBATA
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>This is probably a very involved, interactive pattern. 
> >>>> >>>of the more
> >>>> >>>recent, distinctive work comes from Barry Blyth's lines 
> >>>> >>>which go back to
> >>>> >>>Peach Spot and further back to Snow Peach.  There are also 
> >>>> >>>the patterns
> >>>> >>>like Joyce Terry with the more defined banding.  A further 
> >>>addition
> >>>> >>>would be the plicata bands.  The tall bearded gene pool is 
> >>>> >>>so mixed at
> >>>> >>>this point that it will take a lot of sorting to figure 
> >>>out what 
> >>>the
> >>>> >>>origins of these patterns are and how they relate to each 
> >>>> >>>other and to
> >>>> >>>other modifiers.  Barry Blyth's Copatonic is a really good 
> >>>example of
> >>>> >>>one of the phenotypic expressions of this pattern.  I'm 
> >>>attaching 
> >>>a
> >>>> >>>picture of H93A which is also a good example of an amoena 
> >>>> >>>expression.  Tom Johnson is one of the parents and Tom is 
> >>>> >>>directly from
> >>>> >>>Barry Blyth's bicolor line.  There are so many influences
> >>>> >>>this type
> >>>> >>>pattern that I am sure there are no easy answers.  When I 
> >>>> >>>use patterns
> >>>> >>>of this type, I approach it more from the vantage point of 
> >>>> >>>what happens
> >>>> >>>if I add more anthocyanin or add the carotenoid pigments or 
> >>>flavones.
> >>>> >>>Of course, what happens with the interaction of these is 
> >>>only a
> >>>> >>>guess.  All those unknowns is what makes it fun - and 
> >>>frustrating.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>Paul Black
> >>>> >>>Zone 8 Salem, Oregon
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor 
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> >>>> >>>It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
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> >>>> 
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> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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