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Re: RE: Yellow plicatas and Timewarp


Thst was a very instructive rant :-)

Colleen Modra
Adelaide Hills AUST
zone 8/9

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <irischapman@netscape.net>
To: <iris-photos@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 7:31 AM
Subject: [iris-photos] RE: Yellow plicatas and Timewarp

> You do have yellow , pink, blue etc amoenas even if the carotenoid and
anthocyanin pigments are controlled by separate genes and a yellow amoena
will not afect the distribution of the anthocyanin pigment. Look at the two
attached pictures of a chimera of Summer camp. The exact same distribution
of the anthocyanin and the carotene pigments are obvious when the
anthocyanin is removed. the original idea was that plicatas are a pattern of
the anthocyanin and that thus you couldn't have carotenoid plicatas as the
plicata gene didn't control the cartenoid pigments. A lot of the original
"yellow plicatas" were a plicata pattern of anthocyanin on a yellow ground.
This basically was called a misuse of the term and I agree fully with this.
Thus the terminology was very incorrect used this was and we now call these
plicata on a yellow ground. Now when people say yellow plicata they refer to
a stitching of yellow  in a plicata pattern on a white ground. When Light
Beam (Blyth 1985) was first introduced Barry called it a yellow plicata. It
was from Broadway X Beverly Sills. He got called to task for using such a
term. Broadway is a plicata with intense , unmarked yellow standards and
falls with red plicata markings around the falls which are white in the
centre. A close look shows that there basically is a yellow rim around the
standards and the anthocyanin is on top of this, not what I would call a red
on white plicata but a plicata on a Joyce Terry ground. Beverly Sills is a
pink but it and its parent Vanity throw lots of plicatas. Either one or both
could be a plicata with the anthocyanin removed by one of the anthocyanin
removal genes (recessive or dominant) and with BS I suspect "I". I used LB
in a plicata cross and got all plicata offspring. Barry also has done this
and has gotten the same result. Jean Witt had written an article (I'd have
to look up the reference) where she was a heretic (my term) and presented an
argument for there being yellow plicatas with the yellow pigment distributed
in a plicata pattern just like the  anthocyanin is.
> In the cross of mine with light beam I got some seedlings with a purple
plicata stitching on a Joyce terry pattern. The colour of the stitching is
red when it is on the yellow ground and violet-blue where it is on the white
ground on the falls. There also was one seedling with yellow stitching in
exactly the same pattern as in a plicata. Dots and veins and not solid as in
a JT pattern.
> Facts are facts, theories try to explain facts, if they don't then we need
another explanation. I have accepted these facts to mean that we can have
carotenoid pigment distributed exactly like anthocyanin apparently
controlled by the same factor. You don't check out something that you don't
believe in its existence so this hasn't been researched as it doesn’t exist,
right? Well my first thoughts were that perhaps the yellow was a flavanoid
so I checked this out. That is not the case, it really is an oil based
yellow pigment, not water based. Currently I'm trying to find out if we can
call on a structural explanation. That is a difference in the cell structure
that somehow prevents any pigment from being present. It seems to be related
to  the original genes from Iris variegata where we can and do have both
water based and oil based pigments distributed exactly the same way, 100
percent matching. You can't have this if one gene controls yellow and one
controls violet, there is no way then can be aligned this precisely. With
all the evidence supporting  I. variegata as being one of the ancestor
species  of the plicata pattern  there does seem to be a connection.
> I present a program  I call "Pigments and Pattern" exploring and
explaining how we put all the various gene controls and pigments togther to
make the various iris flowers we have. I always trot out my data on "Yellow
> It appears to be quite convincing.
> Once there is a general (or increased ) acknowledgement of its existence
then there be research into how it is so. Right now there is a dearth of
research. After all why research something that doesn't exist.
> Saying "By definition, a plicata must  contain anthocyanin!”is an attempt
to define it out of existence.
>  I have heard various explanation that could possible explain some
situations, but they don’t really seem to be able to explain all things,
especially  something like Time Warp where even if there is some anthocyanin
there on top the yellow to make the dots stand out, you can see that the
yellow is there in dots. I have taken several good close ups of a number of
my yellow SDB  patterned from plicata genetics that show dotted and streaked
yellow on white that even if there is some anthocyanin there, it couldn’t
possibly account for what is seen.
> Sorry for the long rant but the more I study    Pigments and patterns the
more I realize that there are factors influencing them that haven’t been
fully explored. This is one, flavanoids are another
> and there is Anthocyanin Enhancement ( anthocyaninic vacuole inclusions)
and a couple more I suspect and have good documentation for.
> I feel there is a lot of research that could be done that is not being
done. Dr. Randolf did some nice genetic research with three generation of
crosses with good data collected. This data is still available in his book
and only recently have I been able to properly analysis it. We need more
research like this. WE now have the tools needed. The digital camera is an
excellent tool. Randolf’s research involved other people making the crosses
and sending seeds to him. He had to grow them as it needed an expert to
examine the seedlings. We can now economically take photos of all the
seedlings and examine at them at leisure. Seedling don’t have to be grown by
the person doing the evaluation as good photos can provide lots of useful
information and be distributed to as many people who can all do their own
analysis in their area of expertise.
> Many of the crosses that can provide the data are being made. It’s just
necessary to collect the data that is there and get it to those willing and
able to analysis it.
> Enough ranting for now.
> Chuck Chapman
> >In a message dated 1/20/2005 11:13:51 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> >irischapman@netscape.net writes:
> >
> >Usually  when someone sugests that something is a yellow plicata
> >all sorts of  denials of such an animal come out of the woodwork.
> >
> >
> >Chuck, I'm one of the confused ones.  It didn't make sense to me  that
> >plants with the same pattern, one yellow and the other purple, wouldn't
be the
> >same type.
> >
> >Here is the explanation I received:  "
> >
> >
> >
> >Betty W. in  South-central KY Zone 6
> >Bridge In Time Iris Garden@website:
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