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There is something to what you say. The anthocyanin is in the epidermal
layers of the petal, the upper and lower epidermis. And the pigment can
be in the one and not the other, although it usually is in upper
epidermis. If you can recall the cultivars that you saw with markings
on botom epidermis and noton top I'd like to know names of them . I
don't recall seing that myself, usually the other way, marked on upper
epidermis but not on bottom. The Anthocyanin Enhancemet in the photos
of Alpha Gnu and Batik et al do visually appear as a layer but the
anthocyanins are in actuality all in the cell vacuoles of the

The cartenoid pigments are in plastids in the cell, of the epidermis
layers as well as in the mesophyl. As such they are in layers both
above and below the anthocyanin. if you conceive of them as being in
layers. Actually plastids are in cytoplasm and this surrounds the

The white pigment is not just an absence of pigment (that would be
transparency) but an accumulation of pre-anthocyanin pigments. They may
actually be able to do some masking, but not of anthocyanin, as they
would be in vacuoles, where anthocyanin would be.

To understand combination of anthocyanin and cartenoid pigments you can
take a petal and put boiling wate rover it. Several of these washes may
be necessary to remove all of the anthocyanin (water soluble) pigments.
The cartenoid (oil=2
0soluble) pigments will be left. I have done this
with a number of petals and have found some yellow pigmentation left in
petal where previously I only observed white colour. I would suggest
that you try some of these experiments yourself.

There are broken colour distributions of both cartenoid and of
anthocyain pigments, The patterns with cartenoids are most obvious when
there are no anthocyanin pigments. These would be in the same
mechanisms of the cell, the plastids, so they can't mask each other.

Chuck Chapman


Posted by: "flatnflashy"


Fri Jan 2, 2009 5:53 pm (PST)

--- In iris-photos@yahoogroups.com, Autmirislvr@... wrote:

I'll admit that I'm not really reading the BC posts this

week...explosive germination going on here... I'm overwhelmed... so

if this has been said I apologise...

I'm aware that there are different cell layers for different

pigments/patterns, although I'm not well versed. Pictures of BC's

like the Chimera Alpha Gnu and my own observations of BC patterning

suggest that these layers may be signifigant beyond which pigment.

I wonder if we shouldn't think of BC as a pattern that is overlaid on

top o
f plicata. Or maybe under... or maybe some combination of the

two. I think someone mentioned glaciata or some other function

that "clears" the ground. It's a fuzzy idea I know.

I think of the cell layers as seperate layers of acetate on some

anatomy charts I've seen, which I've said before. I buy the bit

about codons at play in the pigments, but maybe the "ground" on a

typical plicata is just an especially dense, and therefore

opaque, "pattern" that lives in a central cell layer.

I've seen petals that showed no dotting or stippling on the open

front surface but had stippling across the back side of the petal

that didn't show through.

It's just a wondering... I'm still a newbie after all...


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