hort.net Seasonal photo, (c) 2006 Christopher P. Lindsey, All Rights Reserved: do not copy
articles | gallery of plants | blog | tech blog | plant profiles | patents | mailing lists | top stories | links | shorturl service | tom clothier's archive0
 Navigation
Articles
Gallery of Plants
Blog
Tech Blog
Plant Profiles
Patents
Mailing Lists
    FAQ
    Netiquette
    Search ALL lists
    Search help
    Subscription info
Top Stories
Links
sHORTurl service
Tom Clothier's Archive
 Top Stories
Disease could hit Britain's trees hard

Ten of the best snowdrop cultivars

Plant protein database helps identify plant gene functions

Dendroclimatologists record history through trees

Potato beetle could be thwarted through gene manipulation

Hawaii expands coffee farm quarantine

Study explains flower petal loss

Unauthorized use of a plant doesn't invalidate it's patent

RSS story archive

Re: HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
  • Subject: Re: HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
  • From: Eleanor Hutchison <eleanore@mymts.net>
  • Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 15:23:58 -0600

 

This is starting to make more sense these days, Chuck, so I thank you!
 
I rarely make iris crosses, as I'm always busy documenting what's blooming and what hasn't survived.  I do have some nice bee pod seedlings though.  
 
So I figure if I get a plan together before spring finally arrives, I might actually give it a try, especially with a few of my pumilas and aphyllas doing so well, plus maybe some of your "whenever's".
 
El

Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"

Rcessive -dominant  traits can be tricky to get a good handle on. Basically you have dominant genes and absence of dominant genes.  The absence of the dominant genes leads to what is referred to as recessive state.

The recessive state is often a  collection of the same defective gene.  And to make matters more confusing,  most dominant genes are only partially dominant, to differerent degrees.

You need only  one dominant gene, out of four in a tetraploid, to do its job. So  one  anthocyanin producing gene  can  give you a purple (on yellow ground)  or a blue in absence of yellow.  So crossing two purples   that have only one gene to produce anthocyanin, will give you 1/4 of offspring  without anthrocyanin. So yellow from cross of two purples , or from cross of purple X blue. Or white from a cross of two  blues.

In process of producing cartenoid pigment, the lycopene preceeds beta-carotene  in the chain of chemical conversions.  It takes only one of the beta-carotene genes to  convert  the lycopene to beta-carotene.  The absence of any  beta-carotene producing  gene will result in  a lycopene pink  flower (simplified, ignoting tjhe other genes involved)


So if an effect depends on two dominant genes, then crossing two plants having this trait, each with one copy of the the two dominant genes, only 1/4  of the offspring will have a copy of both of the dominant genes. And thus have the trait.

With my "Whenever Rebloomers" I know there is a recessive trait occuring as no rebloomers  when crossed to non rebloomers and when crossed to summer rebloomers. Yet if it was entirely a recessive gene trait, then  Whenever X Whenever, should produce 100%  rebloomers, I'm currently getting about 25%.  Thus a multiple factor effect, and some of the genes need to be dominant.

Could very well be same thing with Summer rebloomers. As if a simple recessive, then summer rebloomers X summer rebloomers would equal 100% rebloomers.


My cross producing 50% rebloomers is the highest percentage I've encountered.

Anyone get higher then 50% reblooming seedlings in a cross?

Chuck Chapman


-----Original Message-----
From: Betty Wilkerson <Autmirislvr@aol.com>
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com; iris@hort.net
Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:28 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"


,<<If it was a recessive only, then it would have been 100%. The only explination  that I can se so far is  two dominants, which gives the 25%>>
I seem to have some problems (still) understanding the difference in breeding with dominants & recessives. 
 
Based on the words--dominant should mean that these genes will prevale over others.  If you cross two purple selfs, will you not get puple selfs?  You have both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.) 
 
Recessive--does this not mean that the genes try to disappear?  Thus you must have some on both sides of the cross to have any chance of getting the color etc..?  You only get pink irises if pink exists on both sides of the cross. 

As to rebloom, I've not seen any cross that comes close to producing 100% rebloom in my climate.
 
Betty W.   . . . . also posting this on iris talk. 


-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
To: iris-photos <iris-photos@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:45 am
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"

Frost Echo and Negra Modelo are both Fall Cyclic rebloomers. So basically anything crossed with them  will produce some rebloomers. That is because FC reblooming is basically a  dominant trait.

I would suggest plant vigour and low mature leaf count at bloom time are the secondary characteristics  which enhance  rebloom and earlier rebloom on seedlings from a cross with a FC rebloomer. The more I look at this the more it makes sense. And my own crosses are backing this up.

I had about 40 rebloom seedlings this year by crosses  using these principals.  Most of these were from FC  reblomers crossed  to  plants with high plant vigour, fast increase, and low leaf count. Some crosses producing 50%  rebloomers.

I did get  rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but with  result looking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant  genes as being involved in the rebloom complex.  If it was a recessive only, then it would have been 100%. The only explination  that I can se so far is  two dominants, which gives the 25%.  And one of these  dominants very well may be the Facilitative Vernalization gene.

I have tested  vigour hypothesei  with cross of Forever Blue X Paradigm Shift ( the plant wit hhighest vigour and increase that I know) and did get  one plant that rebloomed very late. Suggestive of Facilitative Vernalization, as plant had been mature for a long time,

While FC X FC  may increase number of reblooming seedlings, it is not necessarily so.  A cross of Lenora Pearl X October splendor (both FC rebloomers here) had about  30 seedlings, So far, on 2 years of mature plants (2006 cross)  there has been no rebloom.  I would suspect that crossing either of these to a high vigour, low mature leaf count , non-rebloomer, that I would get much better results

The Summer Rebloomers and Whenever Rebloomers have a recessive gene in their complex, so will need a coresponding rebloom gene in the other plant. So a carrier for Whenever gene will not work when crossed to a Summer  rebloomer and vice versa. So right carrier is needed for right plant.

Something like Rain Dance, is not a carrier of anything. But it is a vigorous grower. So does have one of the secondary characteristics  that can be helpful.

Certainly keep  your data. I would be very interested in your results, as I'm still sorting out all the factors.

I'm starting to suspect that  all of the rebloomers have Vernalization  facilitative genes. More research and data is neded.

Chuck Chapman


-----Original Message-----
From: loic tasquier <tasquierloic@cs.com>
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"

 
ï
Yes Chuck, "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, Linda still hesitates to register it.
Even if the texture is a bit thin, there aren't that many excellent rebloomers on the market, and this one is very reliable!
 
 
 
 
I know there is nothing certain to call an iris ' Rebloom Carrier ' but it is just a personal way of selecting the irises i think have a potential to give rebloomers if crossed with rebloomers:
'Rain Dance'  does not rebloom but, crossed with 'Frost Echo', has given the rebloomer 'Raindance Returns'.
'Punk' does not rebloom neither but, crossed with 'Negro Modelo', has given the rebloomer 'Under My Thumb'.
 
I hope that my B204D = Step Ahead x Forever  is a ' Rebloom Carrier ', having 'Forever Blue' as pol parent.
And finally, i also hope 'Spell' is  a ' Rebloom Carrier ' with so many rebloomers in his parentage.
 
 
I have spent months sorting out into two categories the irises that i thought had potentioal, and the ones that didn't.
It's just a handy tool that helps me sort my crosses like this:
R X R : REB X REB
R X C : REB X CARRIER
R X N : REB X NON CARRIER
 
(I might eventually make a more accurate selection by adding to the REB criteria E-REB for Early Rebloom and L-REB for Late Rebloom )
 
I now have hundreds of seedlings that have at least one reblooming parent.
I call them my 'Rebloom Carriers', and even if they are incompatible, I still hope that after several generations, i will finally get some rebloom.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"

I'm assumming "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, as I'm unable to find any information on it.
What is the rebloom information on it?
 
If it is a Fall Cyclic rebloomer , then  you will get a number of good FC  rebloomers from cross with Autumn Jester, and some FC  rebloomer s from the other crosses.
 
If it is a Summer Rebloomers, then no rebloomers from the other crosses unless one of them has the correct  gene set carried as recessive.
 
Lotic, what  information do you use to classify something as a "Rebloom Carrier" ?
 
Fall Cyclic and Vernalization facilitative  rebloomers seem to be a result of a dominant gene, thus you can't have carriers. Although some plants may have these  rebloom genes but lack secondary genes to enable rebloom.
 
For "Summer  rebloomers" and "Whenever Rebloomers"  there are at least one set of recessive rebloom genes, so you can have carriers, but two differerent types.  And each seems to also have at least one set of dominant genes as well. I suspect "Whenever" rebloomers to have a recessive gene plus two dominant genes.
 
Chuck Chapman
 


-----Original Message-----
From: loic tasquier <tasquierloic@cs.com>
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:48 am
Subject: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"

 
 
 
Hello Linda,
 
 Here are the crosses i have managed with your reblooming " Cloud Shadow" = Immortality X Celebration Song.
As you can see, it is fertile both ways.
 
They are not TB X TB crosses, i know, but this mail is, in fact, for the Median Fans:
I will back-cross some of the best babies with their smaller parent.
 
 
If you are interested in back-crosses with "Cloud Shadows", i can make them and send you the seeds, but that will take some time!
 
 
 
 
 
2009cross SDB X TB
 
       
'Autumn Jester'
REBLOOMER
 
 
 
"Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER
31seeds
2009cross TB X SDB
"Cloud Shadow"
REBLOOMER
    
'Punk'
SPACE AGE
REBLOOM-
CARRIER
18seeds
2010cross SDB X TB
B204D= Step Ahead x Forever Blue
REBLOOM-
CARRIER
 
"Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER
7seeds
2010cross          SDB X TB     
'Rain Dance'
REBLOOM-
CARRIER
"Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER
9seeds
2010cross TB X MTB
"Cloud Shadow"
REBLOOMER
'Spell'
REBLOOM-
CARRIER
41seeds
 
 
 
 
 
 
Of course, the minute i have pictures of the first babies, you will be first to know!
Till then, we can dream...
 
LoÃc
 
 



Other Mailing lists | Author Index | Date Index | Subject Index | Thread Index



 © 1995-2015 Mallorn Computing, Inc.All Rights Reserved.
Our Privacy Statement