Re: HYB: umbrata (longer)
- Subject: [PHOTO] [iris-photos] Re: HYB: umbrata (longer)
- From: firstname.lastname@example.org
- Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:04:23 EDT
First let's look at 'Romantic Evening' as it appears to the eye without
Dmitriy photograph Romantic Evening R.E.haft marks
The standards are lighter than the falls, a good, rich violet color. The
beard is a dusky red, and the falls almost black from some angles, dark purple
from others. What haft marks there are are few and about the color of the
standards as I recall. The photo on Denise Stewart's Snowpeak website is the
most accurate for color I have seen published, and is taken from above the
flower. The reader might find the following clearer if that photo (thanks,
Denise) is consulted.
Now, theory. Linda, as I understand those to which you applied having a
characteristic you called by the term "Umbrata"--we're talking about
anthocyanin-pigmented amoenas, variegatas, neglectas and bicolor blends. In
all the cases the fall has a large, dark area, often with a band surrounding
it the color of the standards, more or less.
In her response Linda mentioned two irises Camelot Rose and Magic Man as having the purported pattern. The word "umbrata" was initially used by Mann to discribe a special case of the rimmed pattern in which a distinctly defined "rim" (band of color around falls) exhibited the same color as the standards. At this point (as I understand this) Neil begins using the term "unbrata" to include broader variations in the patten that may also include color variations in which the colors gradually lighten as they proceed toward the margins of the falls. - WDB
Camelot Rose: Norris posted photo (in which Kelly was calling attention to a proto horn in the ongoing SAGE project.)- WDB
Outcrosses from 'Romantic Evening' and its bitone/bicolor seedlings give a
fair percentage, usually about half, with the same dark area of the falls,
often with a band, some without. This pattern behaves (and does so also in
diploids and relatives of amoenas) as a dominant factor generating a fall
overlay of anthocyanin pigments darker than the standards. 'Dominion' as a
first generation tetraploid from asiatic tetraploid crossed with European
diploid shows this same pattern. This is very visible in the HIPS photo.
HIPS photo: Domenion Web photo unknown origin: Magic Man
In the outcrosses to selfs, at least in the second generation of 'Romantic
Evening' offspring, the fall overlay ends up around the beard as a whole lot
of veins of dark color with no color or standard color between them, on the
same order of diploid variegata crosses, but rarely to the same extreme.
The AIS Judges and other bearded iris people use the term "Variegata" loosely to describe a color combination that is a special case of one found among several exhibited by the species i. Veriegata. Essentially, when used by such groups it signifies a color combination, rather than a pattern, having yellow standards and red, rust, purple, lavender, blue falls. In some camps color combinations do not qualify as patterns. -WDB
Lulleby of Spring Ancient Echo Edith Wolford Rustler
All of these quasi and actual "variegata" color combinations exhibit a common pattern trait. They have a border or "rim" around the falls. On occasion subtlely expressed on others dramatically. I do not recall "variegata" color combinations that do not have a "rim" but expect they are common and just fail to trigger my memory.-WDB
Since in my own crosses in which this is being observed *no* other source of
the Umbrata characteristic is present, it must by default be coming from
'Romantic Evening.' Here is one example (no photo, sorry)-- Happenstance X
(Swingtown x Romantic Evening)--medium yellow with scruffy, poorly laid on,
uneven fall blush of dull rose becoming a series of lines around the beard.
Same thing with pink, instead of yellow. Another--a clean self of light rose
violet. Another-- a yellow with a white fall, yellow band, no overlay at
I await these photos with a high degree of anticipation. They may well aid in my understanding and differentiation between rim, band, and umbrata as pattern components.- WDB
That last, the yellow with white area ('Joyce Terry' pattern) is a function of
yellow genetics and can occur with or without Umbrata--no genetic connection
necessary to explain, maybe. I'm not sure. The band of yellow around white
occurs, or can occur, on the inside of the standards and the top side of the
falls. That sounds to me to be entirely independent of Umbrata genetics, as
no Umbrata pattern occurs on the inside of the standards. (Some of the sports
of 'Honorabile' may cause one to wonder about that interpretation, however.)
Joyce Terry Honorable HIPS photo Surrender (Tompkins '51)
Resulting assumption: 'Romantic Evening' has, visible, the Umbrata
characteristic which it passes on as a dominant; with distributions like those
of a one-dose dominant. At least, in seedlings from it crossed with a self I
see this to be true. I'm not sure about dosage level in RE itself.
The photo of Surrender causes me some reservation concerning what may or may not be present in any/all/some irises when "yellow" enters into a discussion. It may or may not be germane to the issues here.- WDB
Consider Wabash, where the recessive character of the *white* is
expressed--the back side, underside of the falls is white, even though with
the translucent character of iris petals the fall overlay does show through as
a sort of shadow. Crosses out from classic amoenas and variegatas have the
same fall overlay, but rarely on clean, white or yellow basic petal color.
The dark area lays over the other color, whatever it is. 'Romantic Evening'
is like that--the outside of the bud (the back or underside of the fall) is
not almost black. Once the fall drops, the overlay color is visible.
Romantic Evening fall (top) Romantic Evening fall (bottom)
Not the best scans but representative of the colors and pattern of the falls from a sunburned bloom. The top view in reality has the red tones present on the hafts extending nearly to the point at which the falls break downward. This point is about the same place the substance can be seen to decrese on the underside (bottom) scan. -WDB
The presence or absence of the "I-sub-s" inhibitor, 'Progenitor'-derived,
mostly--as in 'Whole Cloth,' 'Kevin's Theme' and Kerr's banded yellows and
whites--is a weak dominant that shows strong variation depending on dosage,
reducing anthocyanins dissolved in the vacuole of the cell most strongly
expressed in the top of the standards and most weakly in the band around the
edge of the falls. Mid-range dosages can give sharp "amoenas" (redefined to
include these bicolors from what the word meant in 'Wabash' days). What these
are genetically consist of (1) selfs of blue or violet-blue, and at the same
time (2) cv's carrying one to four doses of the "I-sub-s" inhibitor preventing
_expression_ of the violet or blue in a gradient from top to bottom of the
flower. Those that carry one or two doses only will give half or one-quarter
straight, un-modified selfs in the seedlings, the remainder showing some
degree of surpression (actually, diversion to something not visible) of the
blue or violet color.
Kevin's Theme Progenitor Shreiners photo via HIPS
This is rather more complex when pigments from *Iris aphylla* are present.
These may not be affected--or not affected as much or in the same way--by the
Progenitor factor *or* the inhibitor that makes for Dominant Whites.'
When a discusion turns to "I-sub-s" inhibitors my brain cells start shuttin' down likely because the sanapes start chokin' from obvious over consumption of fatback. "I-sub-s" is largely responsible for my hybridizin' efforts bein' intuitive rather than geneology based. <laughin'> Someday, maybe someday, there is always someday for the lazy. WDB
Since a seedling from (Great Gatsby X Romantic Evening) gave a seedling with
near-white standards and rich blue-violet falls, I am assuming both GG and RE
contributed one dose each of "I-sub-s." Near white standards do not appear
with one dose of the dominant amoena factor alone. The published pedigree of
GG does not support it having the factor. The visual appearance of it,
however, does and its progeny require that interpretation.
A cross of that seedling described above with 'Wild Wings' which has black
falls, dark plum standards, gave seedlings with almost black falls and violet
blue standards, black falls with almost white standards and so on.
This is why I attributed "I-sub-s" to 'Romantic Evening.'
For me, "Amoenas" have always been viewed a special case, color combination of either bitone (falls and standards of colors widely separated in the color spectrum) or bicolor patterns (falls and standards of a color with the color saturation varied in each respectively). In the strictest sense for most irises register as such examined in the company of a white standard (bright white paper) color tints indicate they are actually bicolors. I see nothing that would preclude an iris from being a combination of the two patterns - WDB
I sure hope this is being helpful......
In the case of Umbrata, the pattern or spot is an add-on, not a lack of, and
applies only to the surface of the fall. The band that may or may not be
present around the Umbrata pattern is simply a result of the Umbrata not
covering that band.
In the case of the "I-sub-s" dominant amoena factor, the factor acts as a lack
of, not an add-on. The underlying reality of such amoenas is a blue (or some
such) self. The genetic switch involved in "I-sub-s" acts as a turn-off or
preventer of the blue or violet that is present, beginning at the top of the
standards. Those that have only a band around the fall edge are the extreme
_expression_ of the "turn-off" of violet or blue-generating genetics.
Shadlow asked, "The wider band widths on Mastery and Enchanter lead to
further questions. Do you think that this could be a dosage factor with the umbrata overlay?" I did not have a photo of Enchancer-WDB
Pat Johnson photo: Mastery Blyth photo via ?: Indulgence
Shadlow further stated in the same post "I just recently saw Indulgence, one of Blyth's future introductions. It is like Mastery with the addition of a wire edging of color that matches color of the fall umbrata overlay."
The problem is--both Umbrata and I-sub-s can (and do) appear in the *same*
varieties. A wonderful example is 'Mastery.' It also has yellow, an entirely
different issue. The color of the band around the fall is a separate issue
from the Umbrata overlay present. The contrast between the fall band color
and the standards has nothing to do with the Umbrata. It is due to I-sub-s.
I am sure I have added hopelessly to the confusion.
I also want to remind the reader(s) that I am mindful of the title of an
autobiography of a southern Episcopalian bishop, *Frequently Wrong But Never
in Doubt.* Please understand me--I am full of opinions that I believe to be
correct. Belief does not *cause* reality however.
It is unlikely anyone ever gets "it" all right. For me most genetic speculation is viewed as a "jumping off the deep end" place for knowledge acquisition and is never taken as an incontrovertible absolute. In chasing through this subject, I encountered several other "what am I" photos that may or may not qualify as "umbrata" under Neil's broad brush application and Linda's original narrow definition. We have so little iris specific science available too us and so little interest in real knowledge acquisition within groups controlling our flower organizations we will be "jumpin' off the deep end" for the foreseeable future. More so, we had better just learn to love gropin' around it the dark (opinion) -WDB
Most of the below "what am I" photos were downloaded prior to my having begun keeping a record of who provided what photo. Most are from the iris-photo list but cannot say with certainty all are. Many arrive here from people with similar interests to mine. My apologies in advance for those I failed to recognize in my ongoing, yet to be finished, quasi research effort, draft, thingamajig. The photos in every instance were and continue to be appreciated. -WDB
"What am I's?"
Lights Camera Action Eurythmic
Sprouting Horn Campi photo WMS seedling
Neon Smoke: Home Before Dark
Leotas iris.com Linda Doffek photo
After viewing the several photos in this post along with several others, I am beginning to suspect a link of some sort between thumb prints and what is being referred to as the umbrata pattern. On some occasions what we are calling the umbrata pattern visually appear to be extensions of thumbprints, and/or overlayment and/or underlayment of them and/or mixing of them in the same color layers. On others I become more radical in my thinking and begin wondering if a single iris fall might be divided into three or more color "channels" in addition to layers along the axis of the fall (for now thumb, beard, thumb channels). This mental speculation becomes less farfetched if one views each petal as a micro representation of the entire bloom. As you say, Neil, the issues are complex. Here the issues have become much to complex for a brain clogged with collards and fatback. Specially so close to dinner time. (Short for I jist don't know). Your effort to unclog the impossible is appreciated. -WDB
Thinkin' some more at the kind that don't cause headaches, umbrata, thumb print, swatch, patch, spot or what, I'll be lookin' for Home Before Dark. I'll be buyin' it for my wife tellin' her, "It's call a 'grand umbrata' and I bought it especially for you". Course under my breath and way out of earshot, I'll be addin' "cause that's what you're always sayin', women." <laughin'> -WDB
Smilin' and wonderin' if this is gonna post as formatted,
Neil Mogensen zone 7 western NC mountains
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