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RE: Luminata genotype/phenotype

  • Subject: [iris-photos] RE: Luminata genotype/phenotype
  • From: irischapman@netscape.net
  • Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 00:05:06 -0400

Good observations Neil. A couple of points on Luminata genes.

First Los Angeles is genotype pla pla pla pl ,( three glaciata genes and one  
regular plicata gene) as has been shown by its offspring etc. No doubts on 
this. For more detail see my article on MDB and plicatas.

Second, the luminata pattern, as named , turns out to be pla pla pla plu, 
that is three glaciata genes and one lumminata gene. Time after time luminata 
x glaciata produce half glaciata , half luminata. This has been observed from 
day one, see WoI. With more then one luminata gene the pattern quickly looses 
the "between vein" pattern. The distribution between veins as seen in 
Luminata phenotype, may be more related to an interaction effect between 
three glaciata genes and one luminata gene , rather then the way the luminata 
gene expresses itself. That is , the glaciata gene in its effort to eliminate 
anthocyanin, may start by eliminating it in the veins.

It has been assumed that the plicata series is a series with one gene being 
dominant over another. The more I look at it(plicata genetics) the more 
convinced I am that we have partial dominance/recessive and not discrete 
genotypes. I have not been able yet to determine exactly what a four dosage 
luminata plant ( plu plu plu plu) looks like, although I have some intuitive  
and circumstantial evidence that is very much different then what we see in 
the "Luminata " phenotype.

In crosses of luminata x luminata ( in SDB where we can only get two luminata 
genes, the other two being glaciata genes aka pumila genes and amphidiploid) 
I have been able to get near black plants with white beard and tiny white 
spot around beard. Of course with these plants I also seem to have a couple 
of dosages of what I have been calling Anthocyanin Enhancement gene (Ae.) If 
the luninata gene puts anthocyanin down between veins then with increased 
dosages it should produce even more veining , but with increased dosages of 
the luminata gene we seem to get less veining
Thus the between veins look may not be what the luminata gene does but what 
it looks like in a certain genotype. The Luminata phenotype may result more 
from the effects of the three glaciata genes efecting partial elimination of 
anthocyanin, starting in the veins, and less from what the luminata gene does.

genotype = genetic composition
phenotype = how it looks, regardless of it's genetic composition

More confusion for all those folks already struggling with plicata genetics.

Chuck Chapman

>   Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 06:31:54 -0400
>   From: "Neil A Mogensen" <neilm@charter.net>
>Subject: PHOTO: Luminata in standards  was[1901-2K-petalpusherpaul]
>Dr. Meckenstock posted a tight closeup cropped to the central part of the
>flower of the HISTORIC: Los Angeles on the 5th.
>In it, I noted the pigment in the nearly white central base area of the
>standards had a faint shading of violet blue *between* the veins, not in
>them.  The veins were pure white.  The effect was never noted in just
>looking at the flower in the garden when I grew this variety many years ago.
>In Dan's photo, however, the effect is well defined and grows slightly more
>intense as one moves further away from the central rib and from the base of
>the petal.  Even at its richest pigmentation areas, however, the effect is
>very faint.
>What you see in 1901-2k, Paul, looks like what I see as well, and saw in the
>LOS ANGELES close-up.  One would never classify Los Angeles as a luminata,
>nor this one either, although both show a degree of luminata distribution in
>the anthocyanin in the standards, even if only quite faint in pigment
>This is most curous and a thing I've never noted before.  As the few
>plicatas I have come into bloom I'm going to take a close look at the
>standards to see if the same thing is present in any of them.
>From what has been posted (on more than one occasion) by Chuck Chapman on
>this list and on Iris-talk, plicata genetics is a wee bit complex even
>though there are only three or four recessive alleles to the PL blue self
>dominant.  In tetraploids these can occur in a number of combinations and
>account for glaciata, luminata, plicata and plicata-luminata patterns, and
>probably the ZONAL pattern as well.  (That remains to be studied more
>It is a most attractive flower, Paul.  Thanks for the closeup post!
>Neil Mogensen  z 7  Reg 4  western NC mountains

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