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Re: HYB Mystery solved

  • Subject: Re: HYB Mystery solved
  • From: irischapman@aim.com
  • Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 09:26:09 -0400

A couple of hints on crossing tet pollen onto dips. Catch the flower
as it is just opening. force it open and then pollinate. afterwards,
remove the falls. This will solve problem of bees interferring with
whatyou are doing.

Be aware that you can get some triploids this way, and they are usually

I still think your two postings are totally diploid, from stray pollen.
No indication of any other genetics in their phenotype.

A lot of these seeds fail to germinate because of the endosperm
problem. This can be overcome with using an agar germinating medium,
and peeling seeds. Some data in old BAIS journals on how to do this.
A lot of work initially.

As for tet X dip crosses check"The World Of Irises" detailing history
of development of tetraploid iris.

Thanks Vickie for update. on Tet SDBs. There also is Gnu Generation
that is genetically 8/12/12/12 that was introduced as an SDB because of
it's usually height, and as it was a BC. Generally any stunted IBs
just don't compete with SDB in form and vigour. Same with tall MDBs.
They just don't mach SDB in vigour or flower form. That is why almost
all SDB are 8/8/12/12

Loic, look up amphidiploid in "The World Of Irises" It will give you
some understanding of the genetic stability of SDB plants , and the
hybrid vigour, in this very strong and vigourously growing plant

Chuck Chapman

Re: HYB Mystery solved

Posted by: "loic tasquier"


Wed May 21, 2008 9:28 pm (PDT)

Thanks a lot Chuck, you make me feel better !

The 2 crosses might finally be what i thought they were, (which proves
that i haven't totally lost my marbles yet...), and even though they
are not a miracle, i kind of got lucky !

Yesterday, i pollinated all the MTBs opened with REB-TB pollen, always
keeping in mind my small-flowered-reblooming-medians project...

Of course, there won't be many pods, nor many seeds in the rare pods
that will take, nor much germination later... but the happy few that
will eventually bloom will be SO precious to my eyes, they will be
worth the effort I'm sure.

And i LOVE challenges!

This project doesn't need much room, since poor germination implies few
seedlings, so this challenge could be even shared by people with
smaller gardens.

It would be great to be many more to work in this direction, and so
easy to share the results and even pictures thanks to this forum.

Hope the 'Beating the Odds' game will appeal to many of you.




zone 7 - Nederland

Email : tasquierloic@cs.com

----- Original Message -----

From: irischapman@aim.com

To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 3:40 AM

Subject: [iris-photos] Re: HYB Mystery solved

Actually both of these crosses with MTB pod parents look like they

have MTB on both parents side of the parentage.

They both have typical MTB forms and show no influence from hoped for


It is very possible to produce seeds from a crosss of a tet and a

biploid parent. It hapens much more readily from tet pollen on

pod parent. This is a result of a tendency of the pod parent to

produce a certain small percentage of unreduced gamettes. This is a

result of erors in the reproductive cell division. I know of no

reason of why there should be any difference between SDB and TB

parents. But in any case I have made several tet TB on dip MTB

crosses that worked, with iris. You know you have a take from looking

at the seeds. There are very few seeds in the pod, and they often are

initially larger then the dip produces. I say initially larger as

sometimes the endosperm (seed nourishment material) dies off as the

seeds mature. I won't fgo into the reason for this, but it is an

intersting part of the pollination process.

Some of the seeds will germinate, but many more don't.

Last year I made about 40 crosses of tet daylily pollon on a dip

daylily.(the equivalent of TB X MTB cross) About 15 pods formed.

About 1-4 seeds per pod as versus normal count of about 15-40. Of

these seeds only about 5-6 remained plump, the others became very

flat, with lack of endosperm tissue. Two germinated. Others who have

made tet on dip daylily crosses get about the same. allthough they

don't report a high a percentage of flat seeds.

There are genetic papers and data in books supporting what I'm saying,

as well as personal experience. My first attempt was done in

ignorence. the rest after I read the scientific literature.

As far as I know, all SDB are 8/8/12/12. There may be a few rare

exceptions, but very rare. Smooth, an SDB introduced by Craig is

eported to be 12/12/12/12/ . SDB produce gamettes of 8/12 based on

their amphidiploid composition and all seedlings from SDB X SDB will

have 8/8/12/12 composition.

You do have variations in MDB and IB as some 8/8/12/12 plants can be

MDB in height and some can be IB in height.

Chuck Chapman

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