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Re: Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on photos group)

  • Subject: Re: Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on photos group)
  • From: Bill Chaney <billchaney@ymail.com>
  • Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:38:36 -0800 (PST)


Hi Chuck,

Thanks for all your posts and taking the time to respond to all the questions.

Is Precious Little Pink is diploid?


From: "irischapman@aim.com" <irischapman@aim.com>
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, November 8, 2009 3:00:07 PM
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on photos group)


Forever Violet
Blueberry Tart
Autumn Jester
Summer Encore
Wizzard Of Hope
Precious Little Pink

All except PLP are SDB from Forever Blue. PLP is an IB that reblooms often, and usually before Summer Rebloomers get going, so proably is a whenever rebloomer

Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Chaney <billchaney@ymail. com>
To: iris-photos@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sun, Nov 8, 2009 5:44 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on photos group)

Hi Chuck,

Could you list a few iris besides Forever Blue that you would call whenever bloomers?


From: "irischapman@ aim.com" <irischapman@ aim.com>
To: iris-photos@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sun, November 8, 2009 12:29:44 PM
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on photos group)

What Again is a bit of a mystery.  I've had it and lost it several times. It hasn't been a good rebloomer for me and I'm not sure if it is a summer rebloomer or not. When it has rebloomed for me it was late enough in the season to make it's classification uncertain. 

Grape Cordial does not rebloom for me and so far I haven't gotten Double Your Fun to make it throgh a fisrt winter.

Be Happy has bloomer relatively early for me., but still well after Immortality.

Terry Atkin made the cross of What Again X Forever Blue, and did not get any rebloomers.  So a big diffeence on reciprocal crosses.  I got another piece of What Again and want to make reciprocal croses of WA and FB to see what si going on here.

So  while WA gave lots of rebloomers as pollen parent it didn't for Terry as pod parent.  It should have if What Again is a fall cyclic rebloomer or if it is a whenever rebloomer, so it very well be a summer rebloomer that carries the genes that FB needed. 

My classification so far is the initial classification. I wouldn't be surprized to find several subgroups or other variations  of rebloom genetics. So far an initial start of genetic classification.

To distinguish whenever rebloomers from summer rebloomers, you need to look at initial rebloom. Summer rebloomers need to have flower bud initiated  before they rebloom, whenever rebloomers don't.  Flower bud is initiated after plant has reached maturity and has 6 days of min temperature in range of 16-21 C ,. At least TBs do. May very well be different with SDB.

Whenever rebloomers, such as Forever Blue et ilk will rebloom much much earlier then summer rebloomers. I'm speculating that what is happening is a weakness of apical dominance resetting vernalization.  Vernalization is an epigenetic state, set by the cool days of fall/winter. Once a plant has been vernalized, all  of it's cells are set in that genetic state.  As increases usually don't carry vernalizatiuon with them, it would seem that the main flower stalk resets vernalization in the plant and the increases (normally) . In the wheneever rebloomers ( at least with mine) ther is extra quick growth, so the increases may very well be too large to be reset to a non-vernalized state by apical dominance in spriong. Thus the increases bloom when they reach maturity.  A working theory for now.

In any case the whenever rebloomers  don't need the temperature to set flower bud, so rebloom much earlier

Summer rebloomers go directly from  flower bud initiation to bloom, not needing eithr vernalization or photoperiod to trigger bloom.

To distinguish sporatic  as to what genetic type, (aside from test crosses) it would be necessary to see iff they bloom earlier then, say, Queen Dorothy.

Keep track of those with maiden summer bloom. I've done that with mine this year. It wil;l be interesting t osee what they do in later years.

My best guess at what is happening with maiden summer bloom comes from some research on ardiopsis.  Some seeds that inherit a defective bloom gene will  be set into total plant vernalization by stratification of seeds. And not have vernalization reset by germination. Thus they act as if they had already been vernalized.   Thus they have genes that may contribute to rebloom, but perhaps not stong enough for rebloom.  Again, morew to find out.

I still only have theories on what is making whenever rebloomers do their thing. I'm still looking carefully and tying to sort it all out. Always more to discover.

Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From: loic tasquier <tasquierloic@ cs.com>
To: iris-photos@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sun, Nov 8, 2009 4:03 am
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on photos group)


Hello Chuck
Do you call What Again a summer rebloomer?
Crossed with Forever Blue, it has given fabulous rebloomers, like your fabulous Autumn Jester that bloomed 4 times this year and Blueberry Tart, that bloomed 3 times. There is also Forever Violet and Summer Recall, that i don't have here, but must be good rebloomers too, mustn't they?
And what about Be Happy ? Here , it is also a summer rebloomer, and, crossed with Forever Blue,  Aitken got Double Your Fun and Grape Cordial!
There is also Cry Baby, that reblooms every summer here.
I have used profusely Forever Blue since you've sent it to me, have a look:
here are the crosses i made with Forever Blue this year:
pod pol seeds
B178= sangone x autumn circus forever blue 14
Blue Chip Stock forever blue 5
breezy blue forever blue 24
Desi Brouwer forever blue 3
forever maruchi 7
forever C144A = Plum-Plum X All That Magic 8
forever miss meredith 4
forever el presidente 12
forever B247A= sailor x stingray 8
forever blue B074A= james x forever blue 29
forever blue B109=experiment X forever blue 8
forever blue date 14
forever blue C044C= cry x A045B= (sapph jewel x what) 18
forever blue stingray 2
forever blue B178= sangone x autumn circus  
forever blue ride the tiger
summertime blues forever blue 25

and the crosses from last year:
A044A= red heart x plum forever 8
A048F= djinn X bedford lilac forever 8
B204C= step ahead x forever blue forever 3
B306A=stingray x baby pr forever 11
bedford lilac forever 25
detroit forever 9
forever A020B-RE=whatXsapph jew 18
forever ozark 22
forever ruby 10
forever blue A020B-RE=whatXsapph jew 28
forever blue B156A=forever x cry 16
forever blue over & over 20
pod pol seed
captured spirit forever blue 33
elegant lass forever blue 45
eternal bliss forever blue 11
forever blue cheeky 14
forever blue A021A= Smell  X Plum 17
forever blue prank 13
forever blue claire doodle 5
forever blue punk 11
forever blue honky tonk blues 4
hell cat forever blue 9
immortality forever blue 24
love's tune forever blue 8
mariposa skies forever blue 21
pink fawn forever blue 19
roman noir forever blue 29
sailor forever blue 14
sky king return forever blue 16
snapie forever blue 30
thalasso forever blue 13
ticketty boo forever blue 24
voila forever blue 3
wizard's return forever blue 22
2006 :
pod pol
az ap forever blue 18
breakers forever blue 8
eramosa skies forever blue 17
experiment forever blue 30
forever blue captive sun 11
forever blue star of africa 8
forever blue chubby cheeks 7
forever blue cry baby 0
james bond forever blue 28
long john forever blue 14
mezza cartuccia forever blue 5
roman noir forever blue 23
step ahead forever blue 18
westar forever blue 8
Now, some exciting results:
here are the ones that maiden bloomed this summer (we'll see next year if they really are rebloomers, but it is a good omen),
this is the whole list, there are many from Forever Blue, and also from What Again:
B032B=cream X frankincense 07_12
B032C = Cream & Peaches X Franckincense 10_09
B297C=et bliss x punk 08_08
C014A= midsummer's eve x rom ev  09_09
C017B= miss nellie x buc arcade 09_02
C022A= demon x altar fire 08_30
C044B= cry x A045B= (sapph jewel x what) 08_29
C065A= A034B= (high wire x what ) X  unknown  08_16
C065B= (A034B= high wire x what ) X  unknown 08_14
C065D= (A034B= high wire x what ) X  unknown 07_22
C065E= (A034B= high wire x what ) X  unknown 08_09
C065F= A034B= (high wire x what ) X  unknown  08_16
C067D= (A038E = gypsy boy x hot) X aut tan  08_27
C067E= (A038E = gypsy boy x hot) X aut tan 10_17
C078B= blueberry tart X A045B= (sapph jewel x what) 08_27
C080B= capt spirit x forever 08_17
C080C= capt spirit x forever 09_04
C090A=dark crystal x autumn jester  08_16
C095A= dixie x cry 09_04
C105B= forever x punk 07_29
C138B=pink fawn X forever 07_05
C138C=pink fawn X fforever 07_18
C138D= pink fawn xforever 08_15
C139A= plenitude x cry  08_20
C144A= plum x all that magic 08_13
C160A= serenity X (A045B= sapph jewel x what) 07_27
C167A= sparkplug X (A023B= smelll x what) 09_10
C173A=  ticketty boo x forever 07_15
C173B=  ticketty boo x forever 08_12
C185A= fairy x elegant 08_09
C191A = (A045D=(sapph jewel x what)) X cheeky 07_26
C199= baby prince x ozark 09_07
C208A= cry x immortality  09_09
C209 = cry X Just teasing 09_27
C240A= punk x bounce back 08_22
C250A= tarheel x ozark 09_09
C262= wizard's x stingray  09_19
C264= (A052A=tweety X flamingvic) Xmidsummer's eve 11_10
C265A= A056A-speculaas x altar fires 09_05
C272A=sunny cinnamon x midsummer's eve 08_01
C273= (A056A=(gypsy boy x rom ev) X cassis)  07_10
C295A= finsterwald x hot  08_22
C312= nth jewel x pinch  08_24
C322A = Radiant Love X Bijtje:(pelexhot) 09_15
C330A= voila x all that magic  09_05
C331= voila X (A034B= high wire x what) 08_31
C343= angel heart x banana 07_20
C348B = Zing Me X Romantic Evening 09_12
C350A = Evercool X Popstar  09_23
C358A = Low Ho Silver X Immortality 11_05
C360= many manalos x et bliss 08_31
C364A= pink pele x rom ev 08_25
C375B= smash x miss nellie  08_27
C380A= aglow again x midsummer's eve 08_06
C382E= step ahead X A045L(= sapph jewel x what) 08_07
C383A= elegant lass x forever 07_30
C383B= elegant lass x forever 08_05
C387A= smash x elegant 08_31
C399 = Dante's Inferno X A001A ( baby bengal x Tiger Honey ) 09_13
C411A = Angelic Wings X What Again 09_20
C411B = Angelic Wings X What Again 10_03
C411C = Angelic Wings X What Again 10_07
C411D = Angelic Wings X What Again 10_10
C411E = Angelic Wings X What Again 10_31
C437A= gold reprise x (A023C=(smelll x what)) 08_13
C458= skyking returns x cry  08_26
C482A=unknown TB X unknown 07_25
C482B=unknown TB X unknown 08_15
C482C= unknown TB x unknown 08_30
C494A=unknown X unknown 08_16
It will be more interesting to see what really reblooms next year, but think it would be good food for thought.
NB: Betty, have you noticed all the seedlings from Midsummer's Eve, that is a child from Immortality!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 7:44 PM
Subject: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on photos group)

At times it takes close observation to distinguish what type of rebloomer you have. A plant that reblooms later in season may be a summer rebloomer genetically, but not have had size earlier in season to trigger bloom. So you would need to have noted that it was at size (leaf maturity) to have summer rebloom, and have it sit there and not rebloom when opportunity presents. Opporunity based on weather factors, but you can use plant markers such as Immortality and Queen dorothy as markers.

Also you can have Fall cyclic rebloomers put up a summer bloom, but on a fan that should have bloomed in spring, but was just missing all factors needed. You can tell this by checking rhizome to see if it is a mother  fan blooming or an increase. If on a mother fan, then consider this to not be a summer rebloomer, until you get a summer bloom on an increase.

There is absolutly no doubt in my mind that Summer Rebloomers and Fall cyclic rebloomers are different genetically. I had made numerous crosses of Forever Blue with summer rebloomers, nary a rebloom seedling out of  hundreds of seedlings.  Many rebloomers out of FB X fall cyclic rebloomers.  Far far past any level of significance you could apply to this.

Many instances of Fall cyclic rebloomers from cross of  Fall cyclic  rebloomers X oncers. George Sutton had written and article on this a couple of years back.

Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Mann <lmann@lock-net. com>
To: iris@hort.net; iris-photos@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sat, Nov 7, 2009 1:28 pm
Subject: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on photos group)

[so folks trying to find info in the archives are more likely to find
the discussion, I've moved my comments there as well as photos]

Too soon in attempted rebloom crosses to say for sure, but so far,
rebloom seems to be acting like a full recessive trait (i.e., 1/36 fall
cycle from two half "summer" rebloom parents). Climate interaction and
multiple genetic factors makes it hard to interpret data, but easy
enough to figure out what I want to change.

I'm still not totally convinced that fall cycle and "summer" (i.e.
jul/aug in my climate) bloom are separate genes. With only maiden
bloom, it's too soon to tell how many/if any of the late fall bloom this
year is really rebloom, much less whether it's cycle or summer.

However, if your theory holds for my climate, Chuck, based on leaf
count, it looks like they will all be late cycle.

If they are separate genes, most/all of the "summer" bloomers here also
have cycle rebloom genes.

But am hoping that whatever other factors are operating in plants that
<can> bloom in July and Aug in California have a chance of combining
with plants carrying Jul/Aug genes here to produce plants that will
thrive in my growing conditions and at least bloom by Sept. I'm hoping
to combine traits of my plants that thrive in summer high humidity and
erratic rainfall with those of cultivars that bloom in CA summer heat.

May not be possible, but I figure it's worth a try.

So far, the only west coast summer bloomers that have rebloomed here are
FEED BACK and GOLDEN IMMORTAL. At least those are the only two I can
think of. MARTY RICHARDS is alive, but doesn't rebloom. MARIPOSA
AUTUMN is a strong growing, reliable, fairly early cycle rebloomer here.

Chuck replied:
<Fall Cyclic maturity seems to act like a dominant factor, so no need
to cross it with an other Fall cyclic rebloomer. Just a plant with fast
growth and low "plant Maturity" leaf count.>

I said:
<To get away from all this late cycle rebloom here, for next year's
rebloom crosses, I hope to mix the late cycle genes from a few things
exclusively with west coast "summer" bloomers to see if that will get
the right mixture of rebloom genes to at least get earlier fall bloom.>

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