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Re: iris DIGEST V1 #630

I thought I would get my two cents in about membership.  I am a new member of AIS and also belong to the American Rose Society and the American Hemerocallis Society.  I am an avid gardener and iris, roses and daylilies are my favorite perenniels to grow.  I love to grow plants but am not interested in hybridizing.
  One of the main reasons I belong to these societies is for the monthly/quarterly magazines and in the case of the American Rose Society, its annual.  I particularly enjoy reading about new things and what other people are doing in growing their plants.  My favorite publication is The Daylily Journal.  It has very little business in it and is chocked full of articles on how to grow daylilies and the different ways people deal with disease, fertilization, etc.  My favorite part of this part of this publication is exerpts from the many round robins.
  The Bulletin of the American Iris Society is my least favorite publication.  It contains a lot of business and very few articles by its general membership.
  I also belong to the Historic Iris Preservation and enjoy their quarterly publication Roots immensely.  I guess the main reason I enjoy this publication so much is because I am an avid lover of historic iris.  There is very little business but there are many articles and pictures by many different people.
  All organizations are loosing members.  People are more involved in other things than their participation is societies.  I believe this is the key to keeping people.  Somehow getting people involved is essential in keeping members.
  Barrie Freeman
  Northern California
  zone 9
iris DIGEST <iris-owner@hort.net> wrote:
iris DIGEST Sunday, February 12 2006 Volume 01 : Number 630

In this issue:

RE: [iris] CULT: Murphey's and Borer
[iris] Re: CULT: Murphey's and Borer
Re: [iris] AIS: Bulletins, Changes, Membership
Re: [iris] AIS: Bulletins, Changes, Membership
[iris] Re: AIS: membership & friendship
Re: [iris] AIS: Bulletins, Changes, Membership
Re: [iris] AIS: Bulletins, Changes, Membership
Re: [iris] Re: CULT: Murphey's and Borer
Re: [iris] Re: CULT: Murphey's and Borer
Re: [iris] Re: CULT: Murphey's and Borer
Re: [iris] AIS: Bulletins, Changes, Membership
Re: [iris] AIS: Bulletins, Changes, Membership
Re: [iris] AIS: Bulletins, Changes, Membership
Re: [iris] AIS: Bulletins, Changes, Membership
Re: [iris] Re: CULT: Murphey's and Borer
Re: [iris] AIS: Bulletins, Changes, Membership


Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 20:27:48 -0600
From: "Char Holte" 
Subject: RE: [iris] CULT: Murphey's and Borer

If you have winter growth on your Iris you need to
continue the treatment with Merit so you have full
strength when the borers do come out. For the
little it costs, better to be protected don't you

I put the Merit down right after a rain or in the
very early AM while the ground is still damp and
before I see a half inch of leaf growth. When it
is wet it can't blow away then. I do use it twice
a year. One to kill and one as a preventative.


- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-iris@hort.net
[mailto:owner-iris@hort.net] On Behalf Of jgcrump
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 3:52 PM
To: iris@hort.net
Subject: Re: [iris] CULT: Murphey's and Borer

Having battled borers in the midwest and here in
the upper south for more than 30 years, I have
seen my share of them. As I mentioned in my
recent post (same subject), I used Cygon for many
years and found it very effective. I agree that a
systemic is what is needed to kill them. What may
not be so clear, however, is how they operate and
what that has to do with their vulnerability.

The borer moth is a night flyer, which is why it
is seldom seen. As John mentions, it lays its
eggs in the detritus around the base of the plant.

That may include within the leaves at the base of
the fan, which scrupulous 
cleaning of the bed still won't reach. When the
critters hatch, they are 
microscopically small, and they crawl up the leaf
toward its tip, where they begin chewing at the
edge of the leaf, going downward, until they
actually enter the leaf and continue eating their
way toward the rhizome, 
getting bigger all the time. The method of
spotting the borer in the fan 
and killing it by pinching the fan has been
described and even illustrated 
in, I think, the Bulletin! If not, then it was
the Region 4 newsletter. 
The piece starred Clarence Mahan as the
Executioner. (I think I even recall simulated
sound effects.) While this method of eliminating
the enemy may be personally satisfying to some, I
have never mastered it and am not particularly
attracted to it anyhow. Which is not to say that,
if I spot a 
borer at that advanced stage, I won't attempt it!
The thing is, when 
things have reached that stage, untold numbers of
the infiltrator's cohorts are busily boring away
in other clumps. So, we want to get them earlier.

The borer eggs will hatch, I am told, when the
first warm days of late winter arrive. I believe
it, based on experience. That's usually late
February here. In Indiana, it was early March.
So, that is when I apply 
either Cygon (in days past) or the Merit
(nowadays). I only do it once. 
I also do not spray against the borer in the fall,
because I'm convinced that the treatment is only
effective on the larvae, not the eggs.

All of the above said, I should mention that I
believe there is a second borer hatch that occurs
in late May or early June. That is because I have
found tiny borers in the iris after pods have
developed. I think Charlie Nearpass believed
that, too, since he sprayed his seedlings with
Cygon while they were in bloom. I can't bring
myself to do that. Try it, if you wish, 
and you'll see some sick puppies for a few days.
I think you might use 
Merit without that staggering effect, but I
haven't felt I need to try it yet. -- Griff

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "John I Jones" 
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [iris] CULT: Murphey's and Borer

> Being in borer free country, I don't have much
knowledge of their life 
> cycle, but as I understand it, they eat their
way down in side the leaves 
> and through the rhizome and out into the ground.
There they metamorphcize 
> into the moths that then lay their eggs on the
leaves/detritus around the 
> plant. The eggs hatch and they start crawling
around looking for leaves 
> to eat.
> Seems that the oil might be effective in
smothering the eggs (fall/spring 
> application) and perhaps the small first stages
of the 
> worm/caterpiller/borer (spring application)
> Musings from the uninformed.
> John
> On Feb 11, 2006, at 11:26 AM, Michael D.
Greenfield wrote:
>> I do not see how the oil would smother the
borers as they are inside the 
>> leaves or rhizomes. The reason contact
chemicals do not work. Poison put 
>> on the outside of the leaf do not work either.
They seldom eat the 
>> outside of the leaf. It has to be something
absorbed by the plant such 
>> as Cygon or Merit. Merit granules have not
worked for me. I plan to use 
>> the liquid this year.
>> I sprayed Cygon in 1999 and found the first two
borers in 2004. When 
>> digging in 2005 quite a few were found. Before
1999 I had a ton. The old 
>> wife's tale of one borer per rhizome is untrue.
I have seen as many as 
>> 50 in a two year old clump. A friend had that
clump and we marked it so 
>> I could get a start. There were none left just
rotting iris and a 
>> churning mass of borers. Have not seen anything
like it since. I have 
>> found two borers in one rhizome since. Quite a
few times.
>> I have a small garden so good clean up spring
and fall is not hard. 
>> usually dig every two years and do row couture.
Planting in beds with 
>> other flowers makes borer control harder.
Growing Spurias and Siberians 
>> gives borers a place to hide and place leaves
as they are not dug as 
>> often. Plus good clean up on Siberian is almost
>> The first borer I ever found was a full grown
one eating a bee pod on a 
>> 40" + stalk. I have never seen that since. I
dug everything and found a 
>> lot more. If borers were on the west coast I am
sure there would be 
>> studies done to find out better controls.
>> Mike Greenfield
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John I
>> To: 
>> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 11:13 AM
>> Subject: Re: [iris] CULT: Murphey's and Borer
>>> If it is the oil that kills the borers (I
imagine by suffocating them) 
>>> then perhaps a good solution (no pun intended)
would be SunSpray 
>>> Ultra-Fine Oil. It is an ultra refined
parafinc oil. I use it here in 
>>> California to control Whitefly. Pests don't
develop an immunity to it 
>>> because of the way it works. Non-toxic.
>>> http://www.sunocoinc.com/market/ultrafinef.htm
>>> They don't list any borers o\r the like, but
that just means they 
>>> haven't tested it.
>>> John
>>> On Feb 11, 2006, at 7:27 AM, George Schubert
>>>> Murphy's sounds good, obviously much cheaper
than the Merit granules 
>>>> or spray, and probably better for the
environment. Having said that, 
>>>> we must remember to reapply weekly and after
rains, else bad things 
>>>> happen. For me, I know that bad things would
>>>> At 10:10 AM 2/11/2006, you wrote:
>>>>> In a message dated 2/11/2006 10:05:21 AM
Eastern Standard Time,
>>>>> Autmirislvr@aol.com writes:
>>>>> 1/2 cup of Murphy's Oil Soap to 1 gallon
>>>>> Weekly sprayings commencing prior to the
appearance of the first 
>>>>> borers and
>>>>> continued through bloom season. Reapply
after rain. Use in 
>>>>> conjunction
>>>>> with
>>>>> good cleanup.
>>>>> Thought I'd pass this along!
>>>>> Actually l, remebered \ this last week when
I was swabbing the 
>>>>> floors around
>>>>> here. This was alsom mentioned on the list.
>>>>> Did anyone ever try this? I recently heard
one of the 
>>>>> horticultuists--and
>>>>> she actually is a pro--at the local
greenhouse recommend a dilute 
>>>>> Murphey's
>>>>> solution to a woman who had cooties on some
houseplant. I'm still 
>>>>> asking if
>>>>> anyone hass ever tried a light dormant oil
on the irises for borer, 
>>>>> which amounts
>>>>> to the same thing, I guess. Or does it? Is
it the soap part of 
>>>>> Murphey's
>>>>> which is doing the deed, if the deed is
being done, or is it the oil 
>>>>> residue, or
>>>>> is it both?
>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>> Anner Whitehead
>>>>> Richmond VA USA USDA Z7
- --------------------------------------------------
- ------------------ 
>>>>> -
- --------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
>>> John | "There be dragons here"
>>> | Annotation used by
ancient cartographers
>>> | to indicate the
edge of the known world.
- --------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
- --------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
> John | "There be dragons here"
> | Annotation used by
ancient cartographers
> | to indicate the edge
of the known world.
- --------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.6/257
- - Release Date: 2/10/2006

- --------------------------------------------------
- -------------------


Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 23:48:24 -0500
From: irischapman@netscape.net
Subject: [iris] Re: CULT: Murphey's and Borer

The Royal botanical Gardens in Burlington Ontario has a huge iris garden. They had tried dormant oil with good success. the oil coats egg (of young borer) and they can't breath through their skin, and die of suffoction. That is how dormant oil works. It is one method of borer control they I sugest in my talks to Hort societies. The hunt and squash also works well. But I recomend opening leaves to locate them as they may be protected inside the hole they hae eaten in inside leaf. Even when using cygon I still need to do some cleanup using hunt and squash methods.

Chuck Chapman

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Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 21:55:03 -0800
From: John I Jones 
Subject: Re: [iris] AIS: Bulletins, Changes, Membership

On Feb 11, 2006, at 2:24 PM, Robt R Pries wrote:

> It is amazing to me that I can agree with most
> everything Anner has said and yet arrive at what may
> be the opposite conclusion.
> The first point was that many members really did not
> join on their own volition, gifts, discounts, etc. I
> agree, that is why we agree that those are probably
> not viable ways of gaining members that will stay.
> Even years ago when the society was growing, these
> same tactics were being used and most members did not
> stay. But the small percentage that did stay was
> larger than it is today.

I guess I'd have to see some numbers to support that. I think there are 
too many variables and the differences too small to draw too many 

> And that subtle difference is
> what causes the society to wax rather than wane.
> Logically the difference is whether that small
> percentage discovered the organization a good fit in
> that trial year.
> Anner wrote ----First, I want to observe that in my
> experience significant numbers of
>> the
>> "new" members which are being "lost" each year were
> probably really
>> not there
>> to begin with. They did not join of their own
> volition, fueled by an
>> interest
>> in irises. They were given their memberships,
> either as gifts, or as
>> promotional incentives by Affiliates or
> individuals, or they were
>> signed up at
>> someone's expense to increase the membership rolls
> of a local group,
>> or they were
>> signed up because someone thought giving a
> membership to a local
>> nursery
>> center or a newspaper columnist was a good idea. We
> hear ideas put
>> forth all the
>> time about giving away memberships as a means to
> exciting the public
>> or
>> getting the message out, so we should not be
> surprised that some or
>> most of these
>> people do not renew. We may rightly say that we have
> failed to win
>> them over,
>> possibly that they were even driven away, but I
> think it is well to be
>> realistic about the situation and the odds in these
> cases. Members
>> also drop at
>> the two year, the three year, the five year, and
> the tenth year
>> point, and I
>> would be more concerned about those losses. It is
> just as important
>> to keep the
>> excitement going for the continuing--read
> sustaining--members as it
>> is to
>> create excitement for new ones.
> I doubt that it is a zero sum game that appealing to
> new members would make the society less appealing to
> older members. If anything it means that the society
> might be more appealing and vibrant to everyone

Depends on how it is done. Zero sum gains are often an unintended 

>> Second, I do not think having business material in
> the Bulletin has
>> anything
>> to do with the losses. I suspect people turn away
> from the magazine
>> not
>> because of what they find there, but what they do
> not find: Items
>> which reflect
>> their own interests and what they want from the
> society, and everyone
>> wants
>> something. The problem is that they don't always
> want what the
>> Society can
>> provide, or what the Society itself needs them to
> want, which is to
>> be active,
>> engaged participatory members, informed members who
> are actually
>> interested in
>> the business of the Society, contributing members
> who want to know
>> what is
>> being decided by and about the organization, that
> community of people
>> they have
>> joined.
> I agree that what members do not find is important,
> and because the amount that is spent on the bulletin
> production is finite, reducing the costs of business
> items allows for more space for articles that might be
> interesting to those who are interested in Iris but do
> not wish to be involved in the governance of the
> society. To me developing the casual interest of a
> gardener who just wants to grow iris is just as
> important in their promotion as providing data for the
> officers of the society.

We have to remember that there are a number of things that have to be 

>> Were I able to wave a magic wand to make one change
> in AIS it would
>> be this:
>> I would wish that every member would fully
> understand that when we
>> speak of
>> AIS we speak not of "they," as in "they keep
> printing stuff in the
>> Bulletin
>> which does not appeal to me....they keep raising
> the dues and not
>> giving me my
>> dollar's worth...they are not getting the news of
> the Dykes winner
>> out to
>> the media...I don't know why they don't do more for
> the young...they
>> keep
>> pushing bearded irises at the expense of
> others...they don't meet my
>> needs." Nor
>> do we, as members, accurately speak of AIS as "you"
> as in "you are
>> losing
>> members" or "you have a membership problem" or "you
> are not meeting my
>> needs and
>> expectations" There is no They among members; there
> is no You. The
>> word in
>> most of these instances must be "We," although
> often it is "I."
>> There is a Board, yes, and administrative agencies
> at various levels,
>> but
>> AIS is not just these people, these members. AIS is
> the membership as
>> a whole,
>> each one of whom is ideally a supporter of the
> Society's mission and a
>> contributing member of the whole, according to
> their abilities,
>> resources,
>> circumstances, and interests. That, I believe, is
> what joining AIS
>> means.
> This WE verses THEY argument is right on, but I dont
> understand how it relates to this discussion. Surely
> if we are part of the organization it is important
> that we discuss changes that could benefit all of us
> including new members and WE then have to help carry
> them out.

I think it relates to the problem because so many of the members think 
of the Board (and thus the organization) as unresponsive and that 
"they" are out of touch.

>> Unfortunately, many folks see opting for membership
> in AIS as a
>> consumer
>> issue, like buying a warranted product, as opposed
> to joining in an
>> activity, or
>> entering a venue for self education. Declaring that
> AIS, or the
>> Bulletin, is
>> not delivering on the dollar is to define
> membership as a product,
>> and I
>> deplore it.

John | "There be dragons here"
| Annotation used by ancient cartographers
| to indicate the edge of the known world.


Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 01:51:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Robt R Pries 
Subject: Re: [iris] AIS: Bulletins, Changes, Membership

I have often heard criticisms of AIS on this forum.
They often imply that the board of directors is not
willing to change. I can not tell whether that is true
or not. But the same voices that are often critical
have objected to the change I have suggested. The
change I have suggested is creating a plain paper
supplement for AIS business so that the body of the
bulletin could contain more articles. But the reaction
to this has been that I am trying to take away the
judges list, etc. I hear on television how politicians
try to define their opponents in a way that is
unacceptable so that their ideas will not be accepted.
I can understand the frustration of having someone put
words into your mouth. To imply that because I would
like to change the format of a judges list, somehow I
am not interested in the activity of the society seems
totally unfair. I know of very few people who work as
hard for the society as I do each year in many areas.
To say that the fruits of my labors should not be
considered a product seems ridiculous. I try to
produce many products as part of my efforts and I
listen to suggestions for their improvement, I hope
they continue to be better and better. It seems to me
a small change in taking business items off slick
paper and printing them in a less expensive way. The
goal is to provide more information not less. The two
stimuli for this action are decline in membership and
balancing the budget. It appears that when suggestions
are made the response from some is we cant change.
Yet I have not seen suggestions for solving these
problems. In business there is a saying repeating the
same thing and expecting different results is
insanity. The statement that the AIS has no goals and
that its officials dont care is untrue. It is an
example of the WE verses THEM argument. The AIS board
is representative of its membership and just as
complicated. I have heard opinions now both pro and
con. So a decision either way would be reflective of
some members position. To suggest that the AIS does
not have or understand its mission is only saying that
you may not agree with an action, but it is unfair to
stereotype the organization as not being passionate
about its mandate. I would suggest that I am very
passionate about Iris. I contribute to this forum
because I believe in an exchange of ideas. I am sorry
when someone distorts what I am saying no matter how
eloquently they do it. 


=== message truncated ===  

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