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Re: Re:HYB: Daylength independent


Chuck, my suggestion is that we all report whatever happens in our gardens.? The experiments that work and the ones that don't.? As the weight of information increases maybe the cause and effect will become more clear?? 

It's often warm enough to begin garden work here by mid-March.? It's seems like an eternity.? 

Betty Wilkerson/zone 6/KY/






I'm still puzzling over what is the possible triggers of summer?
bloom in some areas, yet I never get that here with the same cultiars.?



-----Original Message-----
From: irischapman@aim.com
To: iris@hort.net
Sent: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 11:51 am
Subject: [iris] Re:HYB: Daylength independent


Rebloom can occur for many reasons, but I don't see it as anything?
particularly being out of wack. Mother nature is very astute in?
designing plants to survive in their native climate. There is also?
variations in bloom triggers in plants from different latitude clines.?
That is a plant native to my latitude has bloom trigger for it and the?
same plant native to your area has bloom trigger (specifically?
photoperiod) for your climate area. This has been observed in a number?
of species. Thus when a northern iris is crossed with a southern iris?
of same species, there is a reshuffling of these genes and in F2, F3?
etc, there will now be a large variation in bloom time even if each of?
the original plants had very specific photoperiods. It has been?
observed that in some crosses of aphylla (different species from?
different climates) that you can end up with rebloom. Probably just a?
reshuffling of bloom triggers, probably not just photoperiod.?
?
The genes plus environment triggers have to co-operate together. A?
freakish period of weather could trigger bloom. We probably have all?
seen some spring flowering plants bloom in fall after an early cold and?
then warm weather. But this is unusual and most plants have protection?
from this, particularly vernalization genetics.?
?
The rare rebloom on a not normally reblooming plant could be a result?
of a biological misfire as weather triggers have somehow fooled it,?
but regular rebloom is a result of a change in the plant genetics.?
?
Of note is that good rebloomers not only need to have genes that enable?
rebloom, but also need something to give it extra vigour, to compensate?
for plant waste from the rebloom, as most rebloom rhizomes rot, or at?
least they do for me.?
?
For rebloom the modifiers genes , or minor player genes, can make the?
difference between rebloom or not rebloom, but the disruption of?
bloom time needs to be there. For example. Most , but not all?
rebloomers, bloom early and start plant growth early in the season.?
This assists the plant and enables rebloom for a number of reasons.?
Without it some plants with modified bloom triggers , may not reach?
their full rebloom potential. At the same times some plants with a very?
early growth have no rebloom potential. My own Heather Carpet, a SDB,?
greens up and starts growing 5-7 days before anything else in the?
garden, even earlier then rebloomers, yet it has no rebloom or rebloom?
potential other then that, that I know of.?
?
All bloom is a choreography of plant genetics and environment, and?
there is always a possible misstep. And it could be that all iris would?
rebloom if you get freaky enough weather, but of what significance is?
that??
?
I'm still puzzling over what is the possible triggers of summer?
bloom in some areas, yet I never get that here with the same cultiars.?
So far the only thing that seems to make much sense are the two factors?
of very crowded clumps that have time mature rhizomes that don't have?
proper biomass until later in season, and the extra light that provides?
a biological trigger. Any other suggestion are welcome.?
?
By the way a significant number of the plants that have been classified?
as having summer bloom have been crossed with Forever Blue, without?
producing any rebloom seedlings. This suggests that the plants with?
reported summer bloom have very similar genetics in regards to?
rebloom, and reinforces that FB has unique genetics. I have gotten some?
fall cyclic seedlings from a cross with fall cyclic rebloomers. The?
cross of FB X Victoria Falls produced a big seedling crop and almost?
all of them put up fall bloomstalks, just before frost. I would?
speculate that in a warmer climate they would all do this. This also?
suggests that fall cyclic rebloomers have a different genetic base then?
summer rebloomers. There may be some rebloomers that have two?
different types of rebloomer genes, but on the other hand we may be?
dealing with alleles of the same gene, although I suspect that isnbt?
the situation.?
?
Some rethoughts on yesterdays post. Summer/early rebloomers are FRI?
defective, Fall cyclic rebloomers are FLC defective and Forever Blue is?
photoperiod defective and FLC defective. Again, a speculation, I may?
change my mind tomorrow.?
?
Chuck Chapman?
?
?
?
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 08:58:25 -0500?
From: autmirislvr@aol.com?
Subject: Re: [iris] Re:HYB: Daylength independent?
?
Chuck, this reminds me of another point.??
?
Some gardeners think that all summer bloom is just the result of Mother?
Nature being out of whack.??
?
It's been stated that ALL irises may have the rebloom capability?IF the?
right conditions (triggers) occur.? (I won't state who because I'm not?
100% sure of authorship without research.)??
?
If this is the case, could ALL responses of rebloomers be the result?
of?the modifiers and triggers rather than genes?? This might more?
readily explain the effect of a security light or an off season?cool?
spell.??
?
I say it can't happen if the rebloom gene is not present!? If there is?
no gene that allows for off season bloom, surely there can BE no off?
season bloom!?Since the purpose is to block off season bloom for?
survival???
?
<<So it is hard to tell if it was a left over rhizome that had?
cone?through winter but didn't have biomass to bloom or new?
rhizome.?Another possibility is that it is very sensitive to the light?
from any??
other source, such as the security light. This leads to the?speculation?
that some plants are more sensitive to this them others.?>>?
?
?
- - -----Original Message-----?
From: irischapman@aim.com?
To: iris@hort.net?
Sent: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 11:27 am?
Subject: [iris] Re:HYB: Daylength independent?
?
A lot of factors to look at. The rapid increase is one thing I ws??
looking at with the cross of Forever Blue x Celebration song. there??
are a couple of seedlings that do have increadable incesase. IAt first??
bloom, that is the spring after seed germinated, FB had four flower??
stalks open. The ususal for SDB is one, occasionally two stalks at??
this time. After spring bloom finished I divided FB. there were 9??
plants??
??
About summer rebloom.??
??
Betty, Between spring bloom and July bloom appears to be close to 12??
weeks. Enough time for a rhizome to mature.??
So it is hard to tell if it was a left over rhizome that had cone??
through winter but didn't have biomass to bloom or new rhizome.??
Another possibility is that it is very sensitive to the light from any??
other source, such as the security light. This leads to the??
speculation that some plants are more sensitive to this them others.??
??
One more possibility is the difference in daylight between here and??
wher you are (Bettry, Linda and evryone else reporting July bloom) I??
get longer summer daylight then you do. The farther north , the longer??
summer days are. Thus shorter nights and we wouldn't get the night time??
darkness necessary t otrigger bloom until later in year.??
??
Chuck Chapman??
??
?o rebloom in some locations,??
but not GOLDEN APPLE.??
??
About 20 seedlings from this seedling X non-reblooming seedling from??
(IMM X CSONG) may be big enough to bloom this spring (after getting??
whacked by the freeze last spring). Very curious to see if any rebloom??
or produce secondary bloomstalks.??
- - - --??
Linda Mann east Tennessee USA zone 7/8??
??
- - - -----??
??
??
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End of iris DIGEST V1 #499?
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------------------------------?
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Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 08:18:05 -0500?
From: Linda Mann <lmann@lock-net.com>?
Subject: [iris] Re: HYB: Daylength independent?
?
Wow - that helps a <lot>. Now to see if we can put it all to use.?
?
Before you posted this, it had occurred to me that I've been thinking?
about rebloom as requiring the <addition> of a gene (or several genes,?
or maybe different genes that did the same thing in different ways) to?
be <present>, but that it might actually be the opposite. For example,?
most annuals bloom constantly, once they are big enough, as long as?
they?
are able to stay healthy (some can't take the heat etc), so for them to?
bloom only at a particular time of year would mean they would have to?
have a gene <added> to stop bloom until those conditions were met. And?
probably a different gene for each type of condition (i.e.,day/night?
length, temperature constraint etc)?
?
>From what you've dug up, it sounds like this is the case - irises?
without these genes (or with defective versions) could bloom all the?
time.?
- --?
Linda Mann east Tennessee USA zone 7/8?
East Tennessee Iris Society <http://www.DiscoverET.org/etis>?
Region 7, Kentucky-Tennessee <http://www.aisregion7.org>?
American Iris Society web site <http://www.irises.org>?
talk archives: <http://www.hort.net/lists/iris-talk/>?
photos archives: <http://www.hort.net/lists/iris-photos/>?
online R&I <http://www.irisregister.com>?
?
------------------------------?
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