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Re: iris DIGEST V1 #502


thanks for putting all this time into writing about the rebloom triggers
It sure helps our slow minds get deeper into the subject!

since you got some reblooming seedlings with Forever Blue ...
( FB crossed to  fall cyclic reboomers, Autumn
Tangerine, Victoria Falls, yield  fall cyclic rebloomers),

...have you back-crossed these sdlgs with Forever Blue? or crossed them with
other sdlgs involving Forever Blue ?
Some of the genes in these second generation crosses could be compatible and
the reshuffle might lead to getting back to Forever Blue type of rebloom (with
the added bonus of flower shape improvement, different height or colour ).

As i told you before, i have seedlings that should bloom this spring from
Forever Blue crossed with the SDBs Cry Baby (RE), Star of Africa, Chubby
Cheeks, James Bond, Roman Noir, Westar and Eramosa skies, with the BB Mezza
Cartuccia, the IBs  AZ-AP( RE) and Step Ahead and the TB Breakers (RE).
I intend to cross them  together and get 2nd generation seedlings with 50%
Forever Blue genes.
I will also back cross some of them with Forever Blue itself, and get 75%
Forever Blue genes.

I can't wait to see them bloom already.
The rebloom will take a couple more years to be sure, With the spring-only
bloomers, the results are immediate, and if ever a rebloom occurs, it's just a
bonus, (or a curse, for some...)
Instead, we must leave half empty beds for 2 more years in order to see if the
happy few that made it through the spring selection will ever rebloom...!
With the shortage of room here, it's a luxury i could live without!
Guess that's why so few people get involved with them, like Mike Sutton said,
"it's because it's more work!!!"

Loic (with 2 dots on the i)
who, like Betty, could die (or kill...)  for a repeat, cycle & everblooming /
continuous / non-daylight dependant  rebloomer!
     zone 7 - Nederland
 Email : tasquierloic@cs.com

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: irischapman@aim.com
  To: iris@hort.net
  Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 5:25 AM
  Subject: Re: [iris] iris DIGEST V1 #502

  The time between  spring bloom and fall bloom for Queen Dorothy and
  Immortality is about 8 weeks. That gives time for  some maturity. But
  there still needs a trigger for bloom.  The other Summer rebloomers
  also rebloom here but  about 3-4 weeks later. For  example Again and

  Above 40C, most plants put out a chemical to protect themselves from
  heat damage.  This would likely vary between plants.  I suspect Forever
  Blue did that this summer during our hot dry weather. Thus the
  difference in rebloom times. between yourself and Louisville.   Not all
  plants do this. I had a number of plants in a cold greenhouse , and it
  got very hot in the summer. Still Rosalie Figge bloomed in August,
  about 3-4 weeks ahead of when it bloomed outside.

  I have Romantic Evening, Pure as Gold , Cantina, and Renown.   There
  has never been bloom on Romantic Evening  or  Pure as Gold outside. I
  did get bloomstalk on Pure as Gold in greenhouse in November, but it
  froze off before blooming.  Cantina and Renown rebloom here. But Early
  to mid September.  Later then that, this year.

  Hot temperatures have been reported to undo estivation chemicals.

  We still need a  bloom trigger. If it was just time to maturity, then
  these others should rebloom here and earlier.

  All SDB are half  Iris pumilla, with the  two sets of 8 chromosomes,
  and the other two set are two sets of 12 , from mixed species.  The
  sets of 8 don't exchange genetic information with the two sets of 12 as
  they are amphidiploid.

  One thing that happens when you mix genes from different species, is
  the bio-chemical signals sometimes misfire. That is because they have
  different pathways  etc and when some things change, they don't work
  the same way.  Thus some of what  we see with rebloom could be mixed
  signals, such as cultural differences where body language can convey
  very different messages. Thus a trace back to species would unlikely
  produce any useful information. As we are no longer dealing with  a
  species, but a mix.

  Some of Dykes crosses of two clones of aphylla, produced a rebloomer.
  The rebloom wasn't there in either clone, but in the combination it
  was. Any species that has wide latitude distribution, will develop
  latitude clines. That is the bloom triggers, specifically photoperiod,
  can vary from  from latitude to latitude. When different clines are
  crossed, the offspring have a bloom time between the two parents. And,
  the triggers  don't work exactly the same.  This made a difference
  between two aphylla clones, and these are more closely related then
  the mix we have now. Trigger signals sent, but the receptor is
  different then what it was expecting, and vice-versa.

  We have the  biology and the environmental triggers of the biology. We
  need to identify both.

  It seems clear that we are dealing with three different sets of genes.
  I checked my records and this year I had fall cyclic rebloom on some of
  FB seedlings. Some on a cross of  FB X Autumn Tangerine, a fall cyclic
  rebloomer. Also on a cross of FB with Summoned Spirit.  Summoned Spirit
  has no rebloom blood that I can tell, but it has the same incredible
  growth rate that FB has.

  So my experiments with FB go as such. FB crossed to summer bloomers,
  Immortality, Queen doroty Baby Blessed, Cry baby etc, yields nada,
  incompatible genetics. FB crossed to  fall cyclic reboomers, Autumn
  Tangerine, Victoria Falls, yield  fall cyclic rebloomers, some
  compatible genetics. Thus  three sets of separate triggers that have
  gone awry.

  I would suspect that Romantic Evening and Pure as Gold as Gold have the
  same genetics as Immortality and Queen Dorothy, but have some of the
  modifying genes that are different.

  There was an experiment that involved crosses between Iris fulva and
  Iris tenax. Two species that share an environment, but have species
  differentiation that involves having bloom times that don't overlap
  when they are in the same environment. They crossed some of F1 back to
  each parent, and then compared the bloom times. The F1 individuals all
  bloomed in same time period. The back cross of F1 to fulva had a
  varying range of bloom times between  fulva and F1. Like wise the cross
  of  F1 to tenex yielded an array of bloom times between F1 and tenax.
  Thus a mix up of various components of bloom time, not a set time for
  all F2, as would be expected if one and only one gene was involved.
  The crossing of different species results in a reshuffling of very
  carefully balanced genetic triggers, that work differently after the
  reshuffling.  It is not just the species used, but the clone and
  latitude cline as well.

  Chuck Chapman

  Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 07:00:01 -0500
  From: autmirislvr@aol.com
  Subject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: Daylength independent

  This is typical since your summer is shorter.? Conditions appear
  earlier in colder climates.?

  Region 7 (TN & KY) usually have their fall meeting the third week of
  Sept.? People from Louisville often had fall stalks to bring to the
  meeting,?while I?had nothing.?Louisville is only about 100 miles north
  of me, but their temperatures cool earlier in the fall.

  I started searching the zone 4 & 5 reports for the things that fell
  between their spring & fall seasons.? A certain group of irises seemed
  to do so consistently.? Richards in California grows or grew?a number
  of cold climate rebloomers, and the same irises tended to bloom for him
  during the months between his spring and summer.? Noting that he really
  doesn't have seasons . . . but there still was a correlations between
  the two climates.?

  Since I don't live in either climate, my observations are simply
  speculation based on things I saw as consistent and "ah-ha" worthy.?

  Things like Romantic Evening & Pure As Gold did appear on both lists
  along with Renown, Cantina etc..? Now, this doesn't mean that I ignore
  the weaker rebloom of the first two, only that I see them as having
  certain genes or potential that others irises (EX: Silverado) do not.?

  Reports are important.?

  I get cyclic rebloom, although much earlier then the rebloomers that
  are cyclic southern rebloomers.?

  Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:54:45 -0500
  From: Linda Mann <lmann@lock-net.com>
  Subject: [iris] Re: HYB: Daylength independent

  Chuck, have you tracked FB's ancestry back to species?  Any
  intuition/thoughts/wild guesses as to sources of rebloom?

  Anybody tracked back cycle (spring/fall only) vs "summer" rebloomers to

  Just wondering if the different types may originate from different
  species (aphylla vs ?) or maybe different clones (i.e., time periods)
  aphylla.  Probably somebody has already speculated about this in the
  Bulletin or Recorder, but I can't remember.

  If some of the summer and cycle rebloomers come from the same source,
  that lends support to the idea that summer rebloom might be a series or
  dosage effect (i.e., same gene in cold climate summer, cc cycle, and
  California summer). With a temperature trigger added to cold climate
  subtracted from warm climate).

  Which would be encouraging since several of us are trying to make 1)
  [(cold climate cycle or cold climate summer) X california summer], 2)
  sibs of the former, and 3) [(cold climate cycle x california summer) X
  ditto] type crosses to get summer rebloom (either cold climate <or>
  California) to improve form, increase color range, and get summer (or
  least earlier fall) rebloom.

  - --
  Linda Mann east Tennessee USA zone 7/8

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