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RE: iris DIGEST V1 #154


From: iris-owner@hort.net (iris DIGEST)
Reply-To: iris@hort.net
To: iris-digest@hort.net
Subject: [iris] iris DIGEST V1 #154
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 20:36:43 -0600

iris DIGEST Monday, January 15 2007 Volume 01 : Number 154



In this issue:

        Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations
        Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations
        Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations
        Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations
        Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations
        Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations
        [iris] Re: CULT:  Planting siberians
        Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations
        Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations
        Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations
        Re: [iris] Fw: Translingual registrations
        [iris] Fw: Translingual registrations
        Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations
        Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations
        Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations
        [iris] HYB:  Frozen seeds
        Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 20:31:25 EST
From: ChatOWhitehall@aol.com
Subject: Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations

In a message dated 1/15/2007 4:42:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Cseggen1@aol.com writes:

<<I am often befuddled by your writing but on this subject  I  agree!


I befuddle myself sometimes, Connie. You are not missing much,  truth to
tell. As to definitions, note that deceit as such is not always a component of the word. It can also just mean a discussion that appears valid, but is not
very sound.

<<Is it really all that important?

Yes,  I think questions involving registration are always  important. I am
not, however, convinced that there is a crisis here. Griff, on the other hand,
is not so sure. Mike Lowe would be  the one to ask, as he knows with what
frequency, if any, the code of rules with which he works fails to apply to the
real cases at  hand.

<<One would think that if a hybridizer  spent as much time as  it takes to
introduce a new iris, that person would do all they could to be certain the name was not confused with another hybridizers product. And that's all I have
to say about that!

Yes, you would think so.

I hear the weather is terrible in Missouri. Take care.

Cordially,

Anner Whitehead
Richmond VA USA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:39:35 -0500
From: "J. Griffin Crump" <jgcrump@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations

All kidding aside (well, almost all), I agree with Loic that registering
irises named for the same person in different languages can lead to
confusion.  I see no real problem with generic names, such as Little Gem or
Dark Eyes, since the translations are usually quite different in appearance
and such things as little gems and dark eyes are innumerable.  But when we
are referring to the proper names of specific individual persons, we have a
different situation.  Loic mentioned "Joan of Arc" as an example of such a
problem that could occur in the future.  Oddly, it was only 3 months ago
that I decided I wanted to register a seedling as "Joan of Arc".  On
scouring the Checklist, I found JEANNE D'ARC already recorded.  As far as I
was concerned, another iris had already been named "Joan of Arc", the name
simply rendered in its original French.  Happily, I was still able to honor
my saint with her title, MAID OF ORLEANS.

People like to change foreign proper names into their familiar domestic,
more easily pronounced versions, and educated people know that.  Thus, the
possibility exists that someone hearing ELEANOR OF AQUITAINE in
conversation, or seeing it referred to without accompanying date or
hybridizer would think that ALIENOR D'AQUITAINE was meant.   --  Griff

zone 7 in Virginia


- ----- Original Message -----
From: <ChatOWhitehall@aol.com>
To: <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations


> In a message dated 1/15/2007 2:46:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> tasquierloic@cs.com writes:
>
> <<These two names refer to the same person, Alienor d'Aquitaine  for the
> French, or Eleanor of Aquitaine for the English.
>
> Yes, that fact had not escaped me. She was a queen of both France  and
> England, which does add piquancy. Of course, England and France were not
> then what
> England and France are now, nor the  languages, but, nevertheless, there
> it
> is. The really interesting one was  Henrietta Maria of France, wife of
> Charles I
> of England. When it became  necessary to take up arms, she shouldered
> hers,
> and led an army. She  called herself, "Her She-Majesty, Generalissima,"
> speaking  of wonderful names. Cracks me up.
>
>
> <<The only problem is that it's totally mechanical and, and in  the case
> of
> Historical figures, i really wonder where is the limit in disambiguation
> .
>
>
> The process is not totally mechanical.
>
> As the last step, a human being of benign temperament, adequate
> intelligence, and no personal agendas, decides whether the name under
> consideration is
> likely to cause significant confusion in any  one of several ways, or
> whether it
> is not. In some small number of  cases this decision is one with which
> other
> persons of good will, adequate intelligence, and no personal agendas, may
> disagree. So be  it.
>
> Of course, with each registration which enters  the arena the terrain
> changes, and the question  of what disambiguation requires, becomes more
> complex.
>
> The only way to eliminate the registrar's sole subjective  call, other
> than
> to form a committee to come up with some joint  subjective call, which
> idea I
> dismiss as no  improvement on the current  system, is to promulgate ever
> more
> rules, to the point where  the process becomes as truly mechanical as
> possible,
> at which point  another set of problems will no doubt be seen peeking
> eagerly
> over the  horizon.
>
> Do you want more rules?
>
> Cordially,
>
> Anner Whitehead
> Richmond VA USA
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:20:56 EST
From: ChatOWhitehall@aol.com
Subject: Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations

In a message dated 1/15/2007 9:45:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tasquierloic@cs.com writes:

<<I think it would make perfect sense to give the meaning in Engligh of any
foreign name, on the registration  file.


This depends on what you intend by 'meaning'. Do you intend a  crude
uninflected translation, in which case I believe one of the online translators will
do the trick, albeit oftimes with hilarious results, or do  you intend
'significance', with nuances?

For example, the Sass brothers, miraculous to tell, named an  iris 'Beau
Ideal.'

Unless there is a date typo in the 39CL, which is possible, and I don't have
time to root around in the files right now because I am waiting for a bunch
of hearties to deliver a new washing machine to the house, this Iris predates
Wren's novel of the same name.

In any case, how would one give the 'meaning' in English of that venerable
philosophical and aesthetic construct, without two pages of text, and  a
bibliography.


Cordially,

Anner Whitehead
Richmond VA USA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 19:55:24 EST
From: ChatOWhitehall@aol.com
Subject: Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations

In a message dated 1/15/2007 7:22:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tasquierloic@cs.com writes:

Do  you  always HAVE to be so unpleasant, or IS your contempt for people so
deeply ingrained that you don't even realise it?


Nonsense, I am a darling girl, and I have contempt for no one on earth  or
beyond. But I am certainly not going to talk with you again!   Whew!

Anner Whitehead, &c

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:34:10 +0100
From: "loic tasquier" <tasquierloic@cs.com>
Subject: Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations

Hello Connie Eggen,
Pleased to meet you!

Here is the copy of the mail Griffin Crump sent 3 hours ago.
HE doesn't think my efforts are deceptive !



"All kidding aside (well, almost all), I agree with Loic that registering
irises named for the same person in different languages can lead to
confusion.  I see no real problem with generic names, such as Little Gem or
Dark Eyes, since the translations are usually quite different in appearance
and such things as little gems and dark eyes are innumerable.  But when we
are referring to the proper names of specific individual persons, we have a
different situation.  Loic mentioned "Joan of Arc" as an example of such a
problem that could occur in the future.  Oddly, it was only 3 months ago
that I decided I wanted to register a seedling as "Joan of Arc".  On
scouring the Checklist, I found JEANNE D'ARC already recorded.  As far as I
was concerned, another iris had already been named "Joan of Arc", the name
simply rendered in its original French.  Happily, I was still able to honor
my saint with her title, MAID OF ORLEANS.

People like to change foreign proper names into their familiar domestic,
more easily pronounced versions, and educated people know that.  Thus, the
possibility exists that someone hearing ELEANOR OF AQUITAINE in
conversation, or seeing it referred to without accompanying date or
hybridizer would think that ALIENOR D'AQUITAINE was meant.   --  Griff"





That idea of Sophistry was introduced by Anner Whitehead and in only invoves
herself.

This forum is not the place to call each others names!

Cordially,

Loic




- ----- Original Message -----
From: <Cseggen1@aol.com>
To: <iris@hort.net>; <iris-photos@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations


>I had to look this one up Anner
>
> Main Entry: soph7ist7ry
> (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?sophis11.wav=sophistry'))
> Pronunciation: 'sd-f&-strE
> Function:  noun
> 1 : subtly deceptive reasoning or  argumentation
>
> Main Entry: soph7ism
> (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?sophis01.wav=sophism'))
> Pronunciation:  'sd-"fi-z&m
> Function: noun
> 1 : an  argument apparently correct in form but actually invalid;
> especially
> : such an argument used to deceive
>
> I am often befuddled by your writing but on this subject I  agree!
>
> Is it really all that important?  One would think that if a hybridizer
> spent
> as much time as it takes to introduce a new iris, that person would do all
> they could to be certain the name was not confused with another
> hybridizers
> product.  And that's all I have to say about that!
>
> Connie  Eggen
> Zone 5
> Warsaw, Mo
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 21:18:32 +0100
From: "loic tasquier" <tasquierloic@cs.com>
Subject: Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations

Wouldn't you appreciate to understand the signification (since the the word
"meaning" seams to hurt your ears ) of these phonetic transcriptions of
Russian names such as : NE TRON MEDIA, PRIGLASITELNY BILET or RADOST BYTIYA
that were registered in 2005?

I personnaly would, and i also imagine it would make the work of the
registrar slightly easier!

Of course, there would always be names with such delicacy, subtillity and
sophistication, that a translation or even a transcription would be "un
crime de lese majeste"...
Nevertheless, in most cases, it would be an improvement from the present
situation, where the percentage of ununderstandable new names is increasing
every year.

Loic




- ----- Original Message -----
From: <ChatOWhitehall@aol.com>
To: <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations


> In a message dated 1/15/2007 9:45:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> tasquierloic@cs.com writes:
>
> <<I think it would make perfect sense to give the meaning in  Engligh of
> any
> foreign name, on the registration  file.
>
>
> This depends on what you intend by 'meaning'. Do you intend a  crude
> uninflected translation, in which case I believe one of the online
> translators will
> do the trick, albeit oftimes with hilarious results, or do  you intend
> 'significance', with nuances?
>
> For example, the Sass brothers, miraculous to tell, named an  iris 'Beau
> Ideal.'
>
> Unless there is a date typo in the 39CL, which is possible, and I don't
> have
> time to root around in the files right now because I am waiting for a
> bunch
> of hearties to deliver a new washing machine to the house, this Iris
> predates
> Wren's novel of the same name.
>
> In any case, how would one give the 'meaning' in English  of that
> venerable
> philosophical and aesthetic construct, without two pages of text, and  a
> bibliography.
>
>
> Cordially,
>
> Anner Whitehead
> Richmond VA USA
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:20:50 EST
From: ChatOWhitehall@aol.com
Subject: [iris] Re: CULT:  Planting siberians

In a message dated 1/11/2007 6:51:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,  jgcrump
@cox.net writes:

A friend has given me some siberian iris seeds which she has had for a couple of years. I've never raised siberians from seed. I'd appreciate any advice
that any of you with experience wants to give  me.



Soak three four or five days, changing the water daily. Surface sow on your chosen medium. Do not cover the seed. Cover the pot with clear kitchen wrap held on with a rubberband. Keep warm and in bright light but not direct sun. Remove any seeds which mold. When germination starts, remove plastic wrap. If
you don't see some action within six weeks, move the pots outside,  protect
against rodents, and expect to see them about the third week  of April.

Anner Whitehead
Richmond VA USA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 16:28:29 EST
From: ChatOWhitehall@aol.com
Subject: Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations

In a message dated 1/15/2007 3:21:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tasquierloic@cs.com writes:

Of  course, there would always be names with such delicacy, subtillity and
sophistication, that a translation or even a transcription would be "un
crime de lese majeste"...


Codswallop.

My point is that you are going to run into some problems trying to provide a
short simple clear 'meaning' of a complex abstraction.  This has nothing to
do with sophistication, it has to do with the nature of language. "Beau Ideal"
is a perfectly good Iris name, in fact it is an excellent  one.

As for the idea that people may screw up Iris names when they say them  out
loud and thereby cause confusion, I suggest that there is no name, proper or othewise, that cannot be made confusing or ridiculous by mispronunciation, and
it is impossible to eliminate the risk  of this happening.

This conversation is rapidly approaching sophistry, so  I'll leave you
fellows to it.

Cordially,

Anner Whitehead
Richmond VA USA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:21:16 +0100
From: "loic tasquier" <tasquierloic@cs.com>
Subject: Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations

Anner,

Do you always HAVE to be so unpleasant, or IS your contempt for people so
deeply ingrained that you don't even realise it?

From now we'd better avoid each other, for the sake of peace on this forum.

Sincerely,

Loic


- ----- Original Message -----
From: <ChatOWhitehall@aol.com>
To: <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations


> In a message dated 1/15/2007 3:21:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> tasquierloic@cs.com writes:
>
> Of course, there would always be names with such delicacy, subtillity and
> sophistication, that a translation or even a transcription would be "un
> crime de lese majeste"...
>
>
> Codswallop.
>
> My point is that you are going to run into some problems trying  to
> provide a
> short simple clear 'meaning' of a complex abstraction.  This has nothing
> to
> do with sophistication, it has to do with the nature of  language. "Beau
> Ideal"
> is a perfectly good Iris name, in fact it is an excellent  one.
>
> As for the idea that people may screw up Iris names when they say them
> out
> loud and thereby cause confusion, I suggest that there is no name, proper
> or
> othewise, that cannot be made confusing or  ridiculous by
> mispronunciation, and
> it is impossible to eliminate the risk  of this happening.
>
> This conversation is rapidly approaching sophistry, so  I'll leave you
> fellows to it.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Anner Whitehead
> Richmond VA USA
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 21:45:54 EST
From: ChatOWhitehall@aol.com
Subject: Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations

In a message dated 1/14/2007 9:26:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jgcrump@cox.net writes:

I think  I remember reading about a fellow who was accused of fostering
disabmbiguation.  Didnt they hang him?


Surely you are not troubling to go to town with my typo, Griff? And after I
totally exhausted myself typing  out suggestions about your wretched seeds.

Anent same: Note that Deno's experiments indicated that prolonged dry stora ge--holding over from a previous year counts-- increased the requirement for light on the seeds. If those are wilsonii or some other far eastern siberian,
the germination requirement story may  change.

AMW

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 12:08:04 -0800
From: John I Jones <jijones@usjoneses.com>
Subject: Re: [iris] Fw: Translingual registrations

On Jan 14, 2007, at 1:33 AM, loic tasquier wrote:

> Hello everyone !
>
> (I will send this to iris-talk as well, so the debate can go on there,
> instead
> of on iris-photo.)
>
> I'm sorry if i have sounded a bit obsessionnal to some of you, but i
> wanted to
> push the logic to the limit, hoping to show this way that there might
> be a
> problem somewhere!
>
> To the astonishment of many, we finally came up with an amazing
> conclusion :
> MEANING has nothing to do with the criteria used for naming an iris
> !...

I am not sure why you find it so astonishing. The ICNCP says nothing
about sound.


>
> Mike Lowe has decided that Eleanor d'Aquitaine and Eleanor of
> Aquitaine were
> different enough to be both registered.

That is not correct the two irises are:

Eleanor of Aquitaine
and
ALIENOR D'AQUITAINE

Which are obviously different names. I believe that the guidelines say
that non-English names should be transliterated not translated.
>
> Therefore, among all the people abroad who don't speak English ( they
> are
> around 6 billon there...), the ones who want to register an iris will
> know the
> proper procedure for doing so without wasting everybody's time with
> unproper
> names.
>
Seems that it has not been that much more a problem for non-English
speakers than English speakers.

John



John                | "There be dragons here"
                          |  Annotation used by ancient cartographers
                          |  to indicate the edge of the known world.

List owner iris@hort.net and iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
________________________________________________
USDA zone 8/9 (coastal, bay)
Fremont, California, USA
Member AIS Board of Directors
Chairman, AIS Committee for Electronic Member Services

Online Iris Checklists at: http://www.irisregister.com

Subscribe to iris@hort.net by sending:
Subscribe iris
To: majordomo@hort.net
Archives at: http://www.hort.net/lists/iris-talk/

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http://yahoogroups.com/subscribe/iris-photos
Archives at:http://www.hort.net/lists/iris-photos/
________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 21:30:18 +0100
From: "loic tasquier" <tasquierloic@cs.com>
Subject: [iris] Fw: Translingual registrations

I mean  Alienor d' Aquitaine and Eleanor of Aquitaine

- ----- Original Message -----
From: loic tasquier
To: iris@hort.net
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 10:33 AM
Subject: Fw: Translingual registrations




Hello everyone !

(I will send this to iris-talk as well, so the debate can go on there, instead
of on iris-photo.)

I'm sorry if i have sounded a bit obsessionnal to some of you, but i wanted to
push the logic to the limit, hoping to show this way that there might be a
problem somewhere!

To the astonishment of many, we finally came up with an amazing conclusion :
MEANING has nothing to do with the criteria used for naming an iris !...



But getting rid of the MEANING is not enough to avoid difficulties, and i now would like to know what are the criteria to decide what is too close, or not
too close, in terms of LOOK and SOUND.

Mike Lowe has decided that Eleanor d'Aquitaine and Eleanor of Aquitaine were
different enough to be both registered.
A whole page of justifications was needed to do so... ( This is not an easy
job, Mike, really! )

Now, it would be interesting to have examples of names he has refused for
being too close in terms of LOOK and SOUND, so we could understand where the
line is drawn.

Therefore, among all the people abroad who don't speak English ( they are
around 6 billon there...), the ones who want to register an iris will know the proper procedure for doing so without wasting everybody's time with unproper
names.

Loic
I

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 21:26:47 -0500
From: "J. Griffin Crump" <jgcrump@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations

I think I remember reading about a fellow who was accused of fostering
disabmbiguation.  Didnt they hang him? --  Griff


- ----- Original Message -----
From: <ChatOWhitehall@aol.com>
To: <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 7:09 PM
Subject: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations


> The simple goal of  the registration system is to
> foster disabmbiguation . . .

> Cordially,
>
> Anner Whitehead
> Richmond VA USA
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 16:40:19 EST
From: Cseggen1@aol.com
Subject: Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations

I had to look this one up Anner

Main Entry: soph7ist7ry
(javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?sophis11.wav=sophistry'))
Pronunciation: 'sd-f&-strE
Function:  noun
1 : subtly deceptive reasoning or  argumentation

Main Entry: soph7ism
(javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?sophis01.wav=sophism'))
Pronunciation:  'sd-"fi-z&m
Function: noun
1 : an argument apparently correct in form but actually invalid; especially
: such an argument used to deceive

I am often befuddled by your writing but on this subject I  agree!

Is it really all that important? One would think that if a hybridizer spent
as much time as it takes to introduce a new iris, that person would do all
they could to be certain the name was not confused with another hybridizers
product.  And that's all I have to say about that!

Connie  Eggen
Zone 5
Warsaw, Mo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:20:03 EST
From: ChatOWhitehall@aol.com
Subject: Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations

In a message dated 1/15/2007 2:46:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tasquierloic@cs.com writes:

<<These two names refer to the same person, Alienor d'Aquitaine  for the
French, or Eleanor of Aquitaine for the English.

Yes, that fact had not escaped me. She was a queen of both France  and
England, which does add piquancy. Of course, England and France were not then what
England and France are now, nor the  languages, but, nevertheless, there it
is. The really interesting one was Henrietta Maria of France, wife of Charles I
of England. When it became  necessary to take up arms, she shouldered hers,
and led an army. She  called herself, "Her She-Majesty, Generalissima,"
speaking  of wonderful names. Cracks me up.


<<The only problem is that it's totally mechanical and, and in  the case of
Historical figures, i really wonder where is the limit in  disambiguation .


The process is not totally mechanical.

As the last step, a human being of benign temperament, adequate
intelligence, and no personal agendas, decides whether the name under consideration is likely to cause significant confusion in any one of several ways, or whether it is not. In some small number of cases this decision is one with which other
persons of good will, adequate  intelligence, and no personal agendas, may
disagree. So be  it.

Of course, with each registration which enters  the arena the terrain
changes, and the question of what disambiguation requires, becomes more complex.

The only way to eliminate the registrar's sole subjective  call, other than
to form a committee to come up with some joint subjective call, which idea I dismiss as no improvement on the current system, is to promulgate ever more rules, to the point where the process becomes as truly mechanical as possible, at which point another set of problems will no doubt be seen peeking eagerly
over the  horizon.

Do you want more rules?

Cordially,

Anner Whitehead
Richmond VA USA

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 19:00:50 -0700
From: "FRANCELLE EDWARDS" <FJMJEDWARDS@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [iris] HYB:  Frozen seeds

I have planted three 60 ft. double rows of seeds this winter.  An injury
to my right wrist last fall made me slow in everything.  My seeds are
planted = inched deep in garden soil.  The first row was planted Dec. 9
and covered with frost protecting fabric.  A few of them are just
beginning to come up.  The second row had to wait until after all my
company left after New Years celebration, and it likewise got covered.
The third row was planted last week just before we got irrigation and I
didnt have time to cover it.  Now we are having record cold.  It got
down to 22 degrees F. last night.  The seeds had been stored wet at 40
degrees in the refrigerator.  About ten percent of them had started to
grow their tiny roots.  Fortunately, my most desirable crosses got
planted first.  The third row contains a number of crosses that are
mostly experiments.  Now it seems that the first experiment will be to
see if any of them survive this freeze and germinate.  Im asking those
of  you with experience in planting seeds unprotected in freezing
conditions, what chances do they have?

Francelle Edwards  Glendale, AZ  Zone 9

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 18:36:33 -0800
From: John I Jones <jijones@usjoneses.com>
Subject: Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations

We may disagree with the extant naming conventions, wish to change it,
and want to debate interminably about it,  but the simple fact remains
that the AIS is the designated worldwide registrar for rhizomatous
(well, I think that is the right word) irises. As such they are
required to comply with the international naming standards. Said
standards allow the names such as Alienor d'Aquitaine and Eleanor of
Aquitaine.

(for which, by the way, I don't have a problem, and I speak several
languages)

I deal with a lot of irises from many gardens and know very well that
people often mispronounce, mis-hear and misspell iris names and no
amount of restrictions on naming conventions would fix that problem.

John


On Jan 15, 2007, at 12:18 PM, loic tasquier wrote:

> Wouldn't you appreciate to understand the signification (since the the
> word "meaning" seams to hurt your ears ) of these phonetic
> transcriptions of Russian names such as : NE TRON MEDIA,
> PRIGLASITELNY BILET or RADOST BYTIYA that were registered in 2005?
>
> I personnaly would, and i also imagine it would make the work of the
> registrar slightly easier!
>
> Of course, there would always be names with such delicacy, subtillity
> and sophistication, that a translation or even a transcription would
> be "un crime de lese majeste"...
> Nevertheless, in most cases, it would be an improvement from the
> present situation, where the percentage of ununderstandable new names
> is increasing every year.
>
> Loic
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <ChatOWhitehall@aol.com>
> To: <iris@hort.net>
> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 7:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [iris] REF: Translingual registrations
>
>
>> In a message dated 1/15/2007 9:45:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>> tasquierloic@cs.com writes:
>>
>> <<I think it would make perfect sense to give the meaning in  Engligh
>> of any
>> foreign name, on the registration  file.
>>
>>
>> This depends on what you intend by 'meaning'. Do you intend a  crude
>> uninflected translation, in which case I believe one of the online
>> translators will
>> do the trick, albeit oftimes with hilarious results, or do  you intend
>> 'significance', with nuances?
>>
>> For example, the Sass brothers, miraculous to tell, named an  iris
>> 'Beau
>> Ideal.'
>>
>> Unless there is a date typo in the 39CL, which is possible, and I
>> don't have
>> time to root around in the files right now because I am waiting for a
>> bunch
>> of hearties to deliver a new washing machine to the house, this Iris
>> predates
>> Wren's novel of the same name.
>>
>> In any case, how would one give the 'meaning' in English  of that
>> venerable
>> philosophical and aesthetic construct, without two pages of text, and
>>  a
>> bibliography.
>>
>>
>> Cordially,
>>
>> Anner Whitehead
>> Richmond VA USA
>>
>

------------------------------

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