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Re: HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
  • From: Paul Archer <pharcher@mindspring.com>
  • Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 14:39:09 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

Yes, however just because a gene is Dominant does not mean all four genes present in the plant for that character are "purple" genes.  Only one Dominant purple gene of the four that can exist is needed to be purple colored flowers. For a Recessive to "show" completely a plant needs all 4 recessive genes (in tetraploids) to be present.  You only need one Dominant in each parent for each parent to be purple.  There are recessives that go along with the Dominants that can emerge when two recessives from one plant meet the same two recessives from another plant.

So when you cross two purple selfs you might get some roses, some plicatas, some whites and glaciatas if the genes for those are there not expressing in the two purple flowers.  Depending on the type of purple the colored flower you are using you may also get carotenoid amoenas as well.  

Now a rhetorically supposition... Is purple form anthocyanin only or a combination with carotenoids as well?  An anthocyanin purple self flower could have all four genes for carotenoid amoenas and not show it because it produces no carotenoid in the petals.

Also just to be sure you understand this comment is correct....
"You have both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.)"

However, the two genes are independent of each other.  So you could get the purple form one parent and also get all plicatas from each parent (i.e. no self gene) and end up with a purple plicata.



-----Original Message-----
>From: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>
>Sent: Jan 9, 2011 12:27 PM
>To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com, iris@hort.net
>Subject: [iris] Re: [iris-photos] HYB  seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
>
>,<<If it was a recessive only, then it would have been 100%. The only
>explination  that I can se so far is  two dominants, which gives the 25%>>
>
>I seem to have some problems (still) understanding the difference in breeding
>with dominants & recessives.
>
>Based on the words--dominant should mean that these genes will prevale over
>others.  If you cross two purple selfs, will you not get puple selfs?  You
>have both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.)
>
>Recessive--does this not mean that the genes try to disappear?  Thus you must
>have some on both sides of the cross to have any chance of getting the color
>etc..?  You only get pink irises if pink exists on both sides of the cross.
>
>As to rebloom, I've not seen any cross that comes close to producing 100%
>rebloom in my climate.
>
>Betty W.   . . . . also posting this on iris talk.
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
>To: iris-photos <iris-photos@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:45 am
>Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
>
>
>Frost Echo and Negra Modelo are both Fall Cyclic rebloomers. So basically
>anything crossed with them  will produce some rebloomers. That is because FC
>reblooming is basically a  dominant trait.
>
>I would suggest plant vigour and low mature leaf count at bloom time are the
>secondary characteristics  which enhance  rebloom and earlier rebloom on
>seedlings from a cross with a FC rebloomer. The more I look at this the more
>it makes sense. And my own crosses are backing this up.
>
>I had about 40 rebloom seedlings this year by crosses  using these principals.
>Most of these were from FC  reblomers crossed  to  plants with high plant
>vigour, fast increase, and low leaf count. Some crosses producing 50%
>rebloomers.
>
>I did get  rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but with  result
>looking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant  genes as
>being involved in the rebloom complex.  If it was a recessive only, then it
>would have been 100%. The only explination  that I can se so far is  two
>dominants, which gives the 25%.  And one of these  dominants very well may be
>the Facilitative Vernalization gene.
>
>I have tested  vigour hypothesei  with cross of Forever Blue X Paradigm Shift
>( the plant wit hhighest vigour and increase that I know) and did get  one
>plant that rebloomed very late. Suggestive of Facilitative Vernalization, as
>plant had been mature for a long time,
>
>While FC X FC  may increase number of reblooming seedlings, it is not
>necessarily so.  A cross of Lenora Pearl X October splendor (both FC
>rebloomers here) had about  30 seedlings, So far, on 2 years of mature plants
>(2006 cross)  there has been no rebloom.  I would suspect that crossing either
>of these to a high vigour, low mature leaf count , non-rebloomer, that I would
>get much better results
>
>The Summer Rebloomers and Whenever Rebloomers have a recessive gene in their
>complex, so will need a coresponding rebloom gene in the other plant. So a
>carrier for Whenever gene will not work when crossed to a Summer  rebloomer
>and vice versa. So right carrier is needed for right plant.
>
>Something like Rain Dance, is not a carrier of anything. But it is a vigorous
>grower. So does have one of the secondary characteristics  that can be
>helpful.
>
>Certainly keep  your data. I would be very interested in your results, as I'm
>still sorting out all the factors.
>
>I'm starting to suspect that  all of the rebloomers have Vernalization
>facilitative genes. More research and data is neded.
>
>Chuck Chapman
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: loic tasquier <tasquierloic@cs.com>
>To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:59 pm
>Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
>
>
>
>
>o;?
>Yes Chuck, "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, Linda still hesitates to register
>it.
>Even if the texture is a bit thin, there aren't that many excellent rebloomers
>on the market, and this one is very reliable!
>
>
>
>
>I know there is nothing certain to call an iris ' Rebloom Carrier ' but it is
>just a personal way of selecting the irises i think have a potential to give
>rebloomers if crossed with rebloomers:
>'Rain Dance'  does not rebloom but, crossed with 'Frost Echo', has given the
>rebloomer 'Raindance Returns'.
>'Punk' does not rebloom neither but, crossed with 'Negro Modelo', has given
>the rebloomer 'Under My Thumb'.
>
>I hope that my B204D = Step Ahead x Forever  is a ' Rebloom Carrier ', having
>'Forever Blue' as pol parent.
>And finally, i also hope 'Spell' is  a ' Rebloom Carrier ' with so many
>rebloomers in his parentage.
>
>
>I have spent months sorting out into two categories the irises that i thought
>had potentioal, and the ones that didn't.
>It's just a handy tool that helps me sort my crosses like this:
>R X R : REB X REB
>R X C : REB X CARRIER
>R X N : REB X NON CARRIER
>
>(I might eventually make a more accurate selection by adding to the REB
>criteria E-REB for Early Rebloom and L-REB for Late Rebloom )
>
>
>I now have hundreds of seedlings that have at least one reblooming parent.
>I call them my 'Rebloom Carriers', and even if they are incompatible, I still
>hope that after several generations, i will finally get some rebloom.
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Chuck Chapman
>To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 7:03 PM
>Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
>
>
>I'm assumming "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, as I'm unable to find any
>information on it.
>What is the rebloom information on it?
>
>If it is a Fall Cyclic rebloomer , then  you will get a number of good FC
>rebloomers from cross with Autumn Jester, and some FC  rebloomer s from the
>other crosses.
>
>If it is a Summer Rebloomers, then no rebloomers from the other crosses unless
>one of them has the correct  gene set carried as recessive.
>
>Lotic, what  information do you use to classify something as a "Rebloom
>Carrier" ?
>
>Fall Cyclic and Vernalization facilitative  rebloomers seem to be a result of
>a dominant gene, thus you can't have carriers. Although some plants may have
>these  rebloom genes but lack secondary genes to enable rebloom.
>
>For "Summer  rebloomers" and "Whenever Rebloomers"  there are at least one set
>of recessive rebloom genes, so you can have carriers, but two differerent
>types.  And each seems to also have at least one set of dominant genes as
>well. I suspect "Whenever" rebloomers to have a recessive gene plus two
>dominant genes.
>
>Chuck Chapman
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: loic tasquier <tasquierloic@cs.com>
>To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:48 am
>Subject: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Hello Linda,
>
>
> Here are the crosses i have managed with your reblooming " Cloud Shadow" =
>Immortality X Celebration Song.
>As you can see, it is fertile both ways.
>
>They are not TB X TB crosses, i know, but this mail is, in fact, for the
>Median Fans:
>I will back-cross some of the best babies with their smaller parent.
>
>
>
>
>If you are interested in back-crosses with "Cloud Shadows", i can make them
>and send you the seeds, but that will take some time!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>2009cross
>SDB X TB
>
>
>
>'Autumn Jester'
>REBLOOMER
>
>
>
>
>"Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER
>
>31seeds
>
>2009cross
>TB X SDB
>
>
>"Cloud Shadow"
>REBLOOMER
>
>
>'Punk'
>SPACE AGE
>
>REBLOOM-
>CARRIER
>
>18seeds
>
>2010cross
>SDB X TB
>
>
>B204D= Step Ahead x Forever Blue
>
>REBLOOM-
>CARRIER
>
>
>
>
>"Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER
>
>7seeds
>
>2010cross
>SDB X TB
>
>
>'Rain Dance'
>
>REBLOOM-
>CARRIER
>
>
>
>"Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER
>
>9seeds
>
>2010cross
>TB X MTB
>
>
>"Cloud Shadow"
>REBLOOMER
>
>
>'Spell'
>REBLOOM-
>CARRIER
>
>41seeds
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Of course, the minute i have pictures of the first babies, you will be first
>to know!
>Till then, we can dream...
>
>
>LoC/c
>
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