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Re: HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
  • From: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>
  • Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 15:37:12 -0500 (EST)

Sorry, Paul.  My examples were clumsy and incorrect.    I didn't really mean
to bring in the anthocynan vs carotenoid factors.  Bad examples.  I understand
that color and pattern are two different sets of genes and work independently.
Linda has walked me through this enough times that I think I finally have it.
I uderstand this below.


<< Only one Dominant purple gene of the four that can exist is needed to be
purple colored flowers. For a Recessive to "show"
completely a plant needs all 4 recessive genes (in tetraploids) to be
present.>>

My lack of clarity comes from classing summer rebloomers as recessive and fall
cycle rebloomers as dominant.

What I'm not understanding is where Chuck states:  (in reference to genes and
rebloom)

"If it was a recessive only, then it would be 100%."  From the paragraph
below.

><<I did get  rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but with
result
>looking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant  genes
as
>being involved in the rebloom complex.  If it was a recessive only, then it
>would have been 100%. The only explination  that I can se so far is  two
>dominants, which gives the 25%.  And one of these  dominants very well may
be
>the Facilitative Vernalization gene.>>

My thought was that two recessives would produce fewer rebloomers than two
dominants, based on my understanding of the terms.

Thinking out loud here:

So . . . a recessive must have 4 copies per side to express for a total of 8
copies of the gene (summer reboom).   . . . Okay, I see why Chuck says it
should be 100%!  In my experience, this doesn't happen.  Must be something
else or some combination.

While a dominant would only need one on each side, there would only be 2
copies and therefore produce 25%.

I think I understand the theory, now.  It doesn't correlate with what I get
here.  Of course, I've no idea what my percentage of rebloom would be if my
seedlings were grown in a more hospitable climate.

What types of modifiers and triggers do we recognize in rebloom, separate from
the genes?

 Betty W.




-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Archer <pharcher@mindspring.com>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:40 pm
Subject: Re: [iris] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"


Yes, however just because a gene is Dominant does not mean all four genes
resent in the plant for that character are "purple" genes.  Only one Dominant
urple gene of the four that can exist is needed to be purple colored flowers.
or a Recessive to "show" completely a plant needs all 4 recessive genes (in
etraploids) to be present.  You only need one Dominant in each parent for each
arent to be purple.  There are recessives that go along with the Dominants
that
an emerge when two recessives from one plant meet the same two recessives from
nother plant.
So when you cross two purple selfs you might get some roses, some plicatas,
some
hites and glaciatas if the genes for those are there not expressing in the two
urple flowers.  Depending on the type of purple the colored flower you are
sing you may also get carotenoid amoenas as well.
Now a rhetorically supposition... Is purple form anthocyanin only or a
ombination with carotenoids as well?  An anthocyanin purple self flower could
ave all four genes for carotenoid amoenas and not show it because it produces
o carotenoid in the petals.
Also just to be sure you understand this comment is correct....
You have both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.)"
However, the two genes are independent of each other.  So you could get the
urple form one parent and also get all plicatas from each parent (i.e. no self
ene) and end up with a purple plicata.

-----Original Message-----
From: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>
Sent: Jan 9, 2011 12:27 PM
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com, iris@hort.net
Subject: [iris] Re: [iris-photos] HYB  seeds from "Cloud Shadow"

,<<If it was a recessive only, then it would have been 100%. The only
explination  that I can se so far is  two dominants, which gives the 25%>>

I seem to have some problems (still) understanding the difference in breeding
with dominants & recessives.

Based on the words--dominant should mean that these genes will prevale over
others.  If you cross two purple selfs, will you not get puple selfs?  You
have both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.)

Recessive--does this not mean that the genes try to disappear?  Thus you must
have some on both sides of the cross to have any chance of getting the color
etc..?  You only get pink irises if pink exists on both sides of the cross.

As to rebloom, I've not seen any cross that comes close to producing 100%
rebloom in my climate.

Betty W.   . . . . also posting this on iris talk.




-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
To: iris-photos <iris-photos@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:45 am
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"


Frost Echo and Negra Modelo are both Fall Cyclic rebloomers. So basically
anything crossed with them  will produce some rebloomers. That is because FC
reblooming is basically a  dominant trait.

I would suggest plant vigour and low mature leaf count at bloom time are the
secondary characteristics  which enhance  rebloom and earlier rebloom on
seedlings from a cross with a FC rebloomer. The more I look at this the more
it makes sense. And my own crosses are backing this up.

I had about 40 rebloom seedlings this year by crosses  using these
principals.
Most of these were from FC  reblomers crossed  to  plants with high plant
vigour, fast increase, and low leaf count. Some crosses producing 50%
rebloomers.

I did get  rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but with  result
looking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant  genes
as
being involved in the rebloom complex.  If it was a recessive only, then it
would have been 100%. The only explination  that I can se so far is  two
dominants, which gives the 25%.  And one of these  dominants very well may be
the Facilitative Vernalization gene.

I have tested  vigour hypothesei  with cross of Forever Blue X Paradigm Shift
( the plant wit hhighest vigour and increase that I know) and did get  one
plant that rebloomed very late. Suggestive of Facilitative Vernalization, as
plant had been mature for a long time,

While FC X FC  may increase number of reblooming seedlings, it is not
necessarily so.  A cross of Lenora Pearl X October splendor (both FC
rebloomers here) had about  30 seedlings, So far, on 2 years of mature plants
(2006 cross)  there has been no rebloom.  I would suspect that crossing
either
of these to a high vigour, low mature leaf count , non-rebloomer, that I
would
get much better results

The Summer Rebloomers and Whenever Rebloomers have a recessive gene in their
complex, so will need a coresponding rebloom gene in the other plant. So a
carrier for Whenever gene will not work when crossed to a Summer  rebloomer
and vice versa. So right carrier is needed for right plant.

Something like Rain Dance, is not a carrier of anything. But it is a vigorous
grower. So does have one of the secondary characteristics  that can be
helpful.

Certainly keep  your data. I would be very interested in your results, as I'm
still sorting out all the factors.

I'm starting to suspect that  all of the rebloomers have Vernalization
facilitative genes. More research and data is neded.

Chuck Chapman





-----Original Message-----
From: loic tasquier <tasquierloic@cs.com>
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"




o;?
Yes Chuck, "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, Linda still hesitates to register
it.
Even if the texture is a bit thin, there aren't that many excellent
rebloomers
on the market, and this one is very reliable!




I know there is nothing certain to call an iris ' Rebloom Carrier ' but it is
just a personal way of selecting the irises i think have a potential to give
rebloomers if crossed with rebloomers:
'Rain Dance'  does not rebloom but, crossed with 'Frost Echo', has given the
rebloomer 'Raindance Returns'.
'Punk' does not rebloom neither but, crossed with 'Negro Modelo', has given
the rebloomer 'Under My Thumb'.

I hope that my B204D = Step Ahead x Forever  is a ' Rebloom Carrier ', having
'Forever Blue' as pol parent.
And finally, i also hope 'Spell' is  a ' Rebloom Carrier ' with so many
rebloomers in his parentage.


I have spent months sorting out into two categories the irises that i thought
had potentioal, and the ones that didn't.
It's just a handy tool that helps me sort my crosses like this:
R X R : REB X REB
R X C : REB X CARRIER
R X N : REB X NON CARRIER

(I might eventually make a more accurate selection by adding to the REB
criteria E-REB for Early Rebloom and L-REB for Late Rebloom )


I now have hundreds of seedlings that have at least one reblooming parent.
I call them my 'Rebloom Carriers', and even if they are incompatible, I still
hope that after several generations, i will finally get some rebloom.



----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Chapman
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"


I'm assumming "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, as I'm unable to find any
information on it.
What is the rebloom information on it?

If it is a Fall Cyclic rebloomer , then  you will get a number of good FC
rebloomers from cross with Autumn Jester, and some FC  rebloomer s from the
other crosses.

If it is a Summer Rebloomers, then no rebloomers from the other crosses
unless
one of them has the correct  gene set carried as recessive.

Lotic, what  information do you use to classify something as a "Rebloom
Carrier" ?

Fall Cyclic and Vernalization facilitative  rebloomers seem to be a result of
a dominant gene, thus you can't have carriers. Although some plants may have
these  rebloom genes but lack secondary genes to enable rebloom.

For "Summer  rebloomers" and "Whenever Rebloomers"  there are at least one
set
of recessive rebloom genes, so you can have carriers, but two differerent
types.  And each seems to also have at least one set of dominant genes as
well. I suspect "Whenever" rebloomers to have a recessive gene plus two
dominant genes.

Chuck Chapman





-----Original Message-----
From: loic tasquier <tasquierloic@cs.com>
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:48 am
Subject: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"







Hello Linda,


 Here are the crosses i have managed with your reblooming " Cloud Shadow" =
Immortality X Celebration Song.
As you can see, it is fertile both ways.

They are not TB X TB crosses, i know, but this mail is, in fact, for the
Median Fans:
I will back-cross some of the best babies with their smaller parent.




If you are interested in back-crosses with "Cloud Shadows", i can make them
and send you the seeds, but that will take some time!













2009cross
SDB X TB



'Autumn Jester'
REBLOOMER




"Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER

31seeds

2009cross
TB X SDB


"Cloud Shadow"
REBLOOMER


'Punk'
SPACE AGE

REBLOOM-
CARRIER

18seeds

2010cross
SDB X TB


B204D= Step Ahead x Forever Blue

REBLOOM-
CARRIER




"Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER

7seeds

2010cross
SDB X TB


'Rain Dance'

REBLOOM-
CARRIER



"Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER

9seeds

2010cross
TB X MTB


"Cloud Shadow"
REBLOOMER


'Spell'
REBLOOM-
CARRIER

41seeds










Of course, the minute i have pictures of the first babies, you will be first
to know!
Till then, we can dream...


LoC/c

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