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Re: HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
  • From: Paul Archer <pharcher@mindspring.com>
  • Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 16:29:01 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

Not a clumsy or bad example at all, in my opinion.  I knew what you meant by "purple" and was just  elaborating on the complexity of color, mostly for others to ponder.  Most every Iris character is going to involve other characteristics, that the best part.  It simply illustrates the complexity and variation within something as simple as "purple" that is the reason we are intrigued by all the variation.

All questions are good questions are good questions if we are trying to better understand.  Eventually it all will click into place and have that "ah-ha" moment.



-----Original Message-----
>From: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>
>Sent: Jan 9, 2011 3:37 PM
>To: iris@hort.net
>Subject: Re: [iris]  HYB  seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
>
>Sorry, Paul.  My examples were clumsy and incorrect.    I didn't really mean
>to bring in the anthocynan vs carotenoid factors.  Bad examples.  I understand
>that color and pattern are two different sets of genes and work independently.
>Linda has walked me through this enough times that I think I finally have it.
>I uderstand this below.
>
>
><< Only one Dominant purple gene of the four that can exist is needed to be
>purple colored flowers. For a Recessive to "show"
>completely a plant needs all 4 recessive genes (in tetraploids) to be
>present.>>
>
>My lack of clarity comes from classing summer rebloomers as recessive and fall
>cycle rebloomers as dominant.
>
>What I'm not understanding is where Chuck states:  (in reference to genes and
>rebloom)
>
>"If it was a recessive only, then it would be 100%."  From the paragraph
>below.
>
>><<I did get  rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but with
>result
>>looking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant  genes
>as
>>being involved in the rebloom complex.  If it was a recessive only, then it
>>would have been 100%. The only explination  that I can se so far is  two
>>dominants, which gives the 25%.  And one of these  dominants very well may
>be
>>the Facilitative Vernalization gene.>>
>
>My thought was that two recessives would produce fewer rebloomers than two
>dominants, based on my understanding of the terms.
>
>Thinking out loud here:
>
>So . . . a recessive must have 4 copies per side to express for a total of 8
>copies of the gene (summer reboom).   . . . Okay, I see why Chuck says it
>should be 100%!  In my experience, this doesn't happen.  Must be something
>else or some combination.
>
>While a dominant would only need one on each side, there would only be 2
>copies and therefore produce 25%.
>
>I think I understand the theory, now.  It doesn't correlate with what I get
>here.  Of course, I've no idea what my percentage of rebloom would be if my
>seedlings were grown in a more hospitable climate.
>
>What types of modifiers and triggers do we recognize in rebloom, separate from
>the genes?
>
> Betty W.
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Paul Archer <pharcher@mindspring.com>
>To: iris <iris@hort.net>
>Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:40 pm
>Subject: Re: [iris] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
>
>
>Yes, however just because a gene is Dominant does not mean all four genes
>resent in the plant for that character are "purple" genes.  Only one Dominant
>urple gene of the four that can exist is needed to be purple colored flowers.
>or a Recessive to "show" completely a plant needs all 4 recessive genes (in
>etraploids) to be present.  You only need one Dominant in each parent for each
>arent to be purple.  There are recessives that go along with the Dominants
>that
>an emerge when two recessives from one plant meet the same two recessives from
>nother plant.
>So when you cross two purple selfs you might get some roses, some plicatas,
>some
>hites and glaciatas if the genes for those are there not expressing in the two
>urple flowers.  Depending on the type of purple the colored flower you are
>sing you may also get carotenoid amoenas as well.
>Now a rhetorically supposition... Is purple form anthocyanin only or a
>ombination with carotenoids as well?  An anthocyanin purple self flower could
>ave all four genes for carotenoid amoenas and not show it because it produces
>o carotenoid in the petals.
>Also just to be sure you understand this comment is correct....
>You have both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.)"
>However, the two genes are independent of each other.  So you could get the
>urple form one parent and also get all plicatas from each parent (i.e. no self
>ene) and end up with a purple plicata.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>
>Sent: Jan 9, 2011 12:27 PM
>To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com, iris@hort.net
>Subject: [iris] Re: [iris-photos] HYB  seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
>
>,<<If it was a recessive only, then it would have been 100%. The only
>explination  that I can se so far is  two dominants, which gives the 25%>>
>
>I seem to have some problems (still) understanding the difference in breeding
>with dominants & recessives.
>
>Based on the words--dominant should mean that these genes will prevale over
>others.  If you cross two purple selfs, will you not get puple selfs?  You
>have both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.)
>
>Recessive--does this not mean that the genes try to disappear?  Thus you must
>have some on both sides of the cross to have any chance of getting the color
>etc..?  You only get pink irises if pink exists on both sides of the cross.
>
>As to rebloom, I've not seen any cross that comes close to producing 100%
>rebloom in my climate.
>
>Betty W.   . . . . also posting this on iris talk.
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
>To: iris-photos <iris-photos@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:45 am
>Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
>
>
>Frost Echo and Negra Modelo are both Fall Cyclic rebloomers. So basically
>anything crossed with them  will produce some rebloomers. That is because FC
>reblooming is basically a  dominant trait.
>
>I would suggest plant vigour and low mature leaf count at bloom time are the
>secondary characteristics  which enhance  rebloom and earlier rebloom on
>seedlings from a cross with a FC rebloomer. The more I look at this the more
>it makes sense. And my own crosses are backing this up.
>
>I had about 40 rebloom seedlings this year by crosses  using these
>principals.
>Most of these were from FC  reblomers crossed  to  plants with high plant
>vigour, fast increase, and low leaf count. Some crosses producing 50%
>rebloomers.
>
>I did get  rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but with  result
>looking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant  genes
>as
>being involved in the rebloom complex.  If it was a recessive only, then it
>would have been 100%. The only explination  that I can se so far is  two
>dominants, which gives the 25%.  And one of these  dominants very well may be
>the Facilitative Vernalization gene.
>
>I have tested  vigour hypothesei  with cross of Forever Blue X Paradigm Shift
>( the plant wit hhighest vigour and increase that I know) and did get  one
>plant that rebloomed very late. Suggestive of Facilitative Vernalization, as
>plant had been mature for a long time,
>
>While FC X FC  may increase number of reblooming seedlings, it is not
>necessarily so.  A cross of Lenora Pearl X October splendor (both FC
>rebloomers here) had about  30 seedlings, So far, on 2 years of mature plants
>(2006 cross)  there has been no rebloom.  I would suspect that crossing
>either
>of these to a high vigour, low mature leaf count , non-rebloomer, that I
>would
>get much better results
>
>The Summer Rebloomers and Whenever Rebloomers have a recessive gene in their
>complex, so will need a coresponding rebloom gene in the other plant. So a
>carrier for Whenever gene will not work when crossed to a Summer  rebloomer
>and vice versa. So right carrier is needed for right plant.
>
>Something like Rain Dance, is not a carrier of anything. But it is a vigorous
>grower. So does have one of the secondary characteristics  that can be
>helpful.
>
>Certainly keep  your data. I would be very interested in your results, as I'm
>still sorting out all the factors.
>
>I'm starting to suspect that  all of the rebloomers have Vernalization
>facilitative genes. More research and data is neded.
>
>Chuck Chapman
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: loic tasquier <tasquierloic@cs.com>
>To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:59 pm
>Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
>
>
>
>
>o;?
>Yes Chuck, "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, Linda still hesitates to register
>it.
>Even if the texture is a bit thin, there aren't that many excellent
>rebloomers
>on the market, and this one is very reliable!
>
>
>
>
>I know there is nothing certain to call an iris ' Rebloom Carrier ' but it is
>just a personal way of selecting the irises i think have a potential to give
>rebloomers if crossed with rebloomers:
>'Rain Dance'  does not rebloom but, crossed with 'Frost Echo', has given the
>rebloomer 'Raindance Returns'.
>'Punk' does not rebloom neither but, crossed with 'Negro Modelo', has given
>the rebloomer 'Under My Thumb'.
>
>I hope that my B204D = Step Ahead x Forever  is a ' Rebloom Carrier ', having
>'Forever Blue' as pol parent.
>And finally, i also hope 'Spell' is  a ' Rebloom Carrier ' with so many
>rebloomers in his parentage.
>
>
>I have spent months sorting out into two categories the irises that i thought
>had potentioal, and the ones that didn't.
>It's just a handy tool that helps me sort my crosses like this:
>R X R : REB X REB
>R X C : REB X CARRIER
>R X N : REB X NON CARRIER
>
>(I might eventually make a more accurate selection by adding to the REB
>criteria E-REB for Early Rebloom and L-REB for Late Rebloom )
>
>
>I now have hundreds of seedlings that have at least one reblooming parent.
>I call them my 'Rebloom Carriers', and even if they are incompatible, I still
>hope that after several generations, i will finally get some rebloom.
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Chuck Chapman
>To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 7:03 PM
>Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
>
>
>I'm assumming "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, as I'm unable to find any
>information on it.
>What is the rebloom information on it?
>
>If it is a Fall Cyclic rebloomer , then  you will get a number of good FC
>rebloomers from cross with Autumn Jester, and some FC  rebloomer s from the
>other crosses.
>
>If it is a Summer Rebloomers, then no rebloomers from the other crosses
>unless
>one of them has the correct  gene set carried as recessive.
>
>Lotic, what  information do you use to classify something as a "Rebloom
>Carrier" ?
>
>Fall Cyclic and Vernalization facilitative  rebloomers seem to be a result of
>a dominant gene, thus you can't have carriers. Although some plants may have
>these  rebloom genes but lack secondary genes to enable rebloom.
>
>For "Summer  rebloomers" and "Whenever Rebloomers"  there are at least one
>set
>of recessive rebloom genes, so you can have carriers, but two differerent
>types.  And each seems to also have at least one set of dominant genes as
>well. I suspect "Whenever" rebloomers to have a recessive gene plus two
>dominant genes.
>
>Chuck Chapman
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: loic tasquier <tasquierloic@cs.com>
>To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:48 am
>Subject: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Hello Linda,
>
>
> Here are the crosses i have managed with your reblooming " Cloud Shadow" =
>Immortality X Celebration Song.
>As you can see, it is fertile both ways.
>
>They are not TB X TB crosses, i know, but this mail is, in fact, for the
>Median Fans:
>I will back-cross some of the best babies with their smaller parent.
>
>
>
>
>If you are interested in back-crosses with "Cloud Shadows", i can make them
>and send you the seeds, but that will take some time!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>2009cross
>SDB X TB
>
>
>
>'Autumn Jester'
>REBLOOMER
>
>
>
>
>"Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER
>
>31seeds
>
>2009cross
>TB X SDB
>
>
>"Cloud Shadow"
>REBLOOMER
>
>
>'Punk'
>SPACE AGE
>
>REBLOOM-
>CARRIER
>
>18seeds
>
>2010cross
>SDB X TB
>
>
>B204D= Step Ahead x Forever Blue
>
>REBLOOM-
>CARRIER
>
>
>
>
>"Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER
>
>7seeds
>
>2010cross
>SDB X TB
>
>
>'Rain Dance'
>
>REBLOOM-
>CARRIER
>
>
>
>"Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER
>
>9seeds
>
>2010cross
>TB X MTB
>
>
>"Cloud Shadow"
>REBLOOMER
>
>
>'Spell'
>REBLOOM-
>CARRIER
>
>41seeds
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Of course, the minute i have pictures of the first babies, you will be first
>to know!
>Till then, we can dream...
>
>
>LoC/c
>
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