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Re: Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
  • From: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>
  • Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 19:49:37 -0500 (EST)

Chuck,

How can we tell by looking at a plant if it's Tttt or tttt (just for
instance.?)

Somewhere back through the years, I've picked up the information that the only
way you can really tell what any given iris is (is) by seeing what it produces
in it's children?

<<If a plant has? one dominant gene, for example a yellow with three t
genes?(Tttt) is crossed with a tttt? (pink)? flower, half of the offspring
will have a T gene and will be yellow (assuming all other genes are
controlled)>>


<<If a plant has two? independent dominant genes,>>

By independent do you mean dominant genes that aren't linked in any way?

Chuck, I've always been told that recessive genes, especially working with the
tangerince factor, meant I would have to bloom a lot of seedlings just to get
a couple of keepers.  For instance:  Rebloomers with the tangerine factor are
almost non existent in my area.  I'm left with trying to create what I want by
outcrossing rebloomers (non-tangerine) with oncers (tangerine factor) and then
crossing back in later generations.  A tedious job.

For instance, I've crossed Renown onto one of my pink irises.  I have a decent
lavender seedling with yellow beard (expected) which I now need to cross back
to reblooming pink.

Would it make sense for me to create a good rebloomer that contains all of the
recessive colors I want--white with red beard, pink, orange, & red bearded
yellow.  (tangerine factors)  Then use it to breed back to the various colors.
Does this have any merit?

Doesn't it take two dominant amoenas to produce a dominant amoena?

Regards,

Betty


-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 3:55 pm
Subject: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"


 Two plants that are simple recessive for a trait, such as? the tangerine
actor, that produces pink. If crossed with each other will produce all pink
lowers, as there are no other? genes present. that is the gene for
anscribing? (modifying lycopene into beta-carotene) are not present.
If a plant has? one dominant gene, for example a yellow with three t genes?
Tttt) is crossed with a tttt? (pink)? flower, half of the offspring will have
 T gene and will be yellow (assuming all other genes are controlled)

f a plant has two? independent dominant genes, for example? one dominant
moena? gene and one anthocyanin gene (white base in this case)? and it is
rossed to a white recessive ( not a glaciata) , then half the plants will get
he anthocyanin, and half will get the amoena. Thus? 1/4 of the seedlings will
e amoena,? And 1/4 will be solid blue.
That is because half of the plants that don't receive anthocyanin? will
eceive amoena gene, but will not have any anthocyanin,?
Another way of looking at it is that? half of the plants receiving? amoena
ene? will? not receive the anthocyanin gene.
Half of the plants receiving anthocyanin gene will? also receive amoena gene.
hus the 1/4? of the plants show effect of getting?? a copy? of each dominant
ene.
Hope this clarrifyies? situation.
Chuck Chapman



----Original Message-----
rom: Betty Wilkerson &lt;autmirislvr@aol.com&gt;
o: iris@hort.net
ent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 3:41 pm
ubject: Re: [iris]  HYB  seeds from "Cloud Shadow"


orry, Paul.  My examples were clumsy and incorrect.    I didn't really mean
o bring in the anthocynan vs carotenoid factors.  Bad examples.  I understand
hat color and pattern are two different sets of genes and work independently.
inda has walked me through this enough times that I think I finally have it.
 uderstand this below.

lt;&lt; Only one Dominant purple gene of the four that can exist is needed to
e
urple colored flowers. For a Recessive to "show"
ompletely a plant needs all 4 recessive genes (in tetraploids) to be
resent.&gt;&gt;
My lack of clarity comes from classing summer rebloomers as recessive and
fall
ycle rebloomers as dominant.
What I'm not understanding is where Chuck states:  (in reference to genes and
ebloom)
"If it was a recessive only, then it would be 100%."  From the paragraph
elow.
&gt;&lt;&lt;I did get  rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but
ith
esult
gt;looking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant
enes
s
gt;being involved in the rebloom complex.  If it was a recessive only, then
t
gt;would have been 100%. The only explination  that I can se so far is  two
gt;dominants, which gives the 25%.  And one of these  dominants very well may
e
gt;the Facilitative Vernalization gene.&gt;&gt;
My thought was that two recessives would produce fewer rebloomers than two
ominants, based on my understanding of the terms.
Thinking out loud here:
So . . . a recessive must have 4 copies per side to express for a total of 8
opies of the gene (summer reboom).   . . . Okay, I see why Chuck says it
hould be 100%!  In my experience, this doesn't happen.  Must be something
lse or some combination.
While a dominant would only need one on each side, there would only be 2
opies and therefore produce 25%.
I think I understand the theory, now.  It doesn't correlate with what I get
ere.  Of course, I've no idea what my percentage of rebloom would be if my
eedlings were grown in a more hospitable climate.
What types of modifiers and triggers do we recognize in rebloom, separate
from
he genes?
 Betty W.


----Original Message-----
rom: Paul Archer &lt;pharcher@mindspring.com&gt;
o: iris &lt;iris@hort.net&gt;
ent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:40 pm
ubject: Re: [iris] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"

es, however just because a gene is Dominant does not mean all four genes
esent in the plant for that character are "purple" genes.  Only one Dominant
rple gene of the four that can exist is needed to be purple colored flowers.
r a Recessive to "show" completely a plant needs all 4 recessive genes (in
traploids) to be present.  You only need one Dominant in each parent for each
rent to be purple.  There are recessives that go along with the Dominants
hat
n emerge when two recessives from one plant meet the same two recessives from
other plant.
o when you cross two purple selfs you might get some roses, some plicatas,
ome
ites and glaciatas if the genes for those are there not expressing in the two
rple flowers.  Depending on the type of purple the colored flower you are
ing you may also get carotenoid amoenas as well.
ow a rhetorically supposition... Is purple form anthocyanin only or a
mbination with carotenoids as well?  An anthocyanin purple self flower could
ve all four genes for carotenoid amoenas and not show it because it produces
 carotenoid in the petals.
lso just to be sure you understand this comment is correct....
ou have both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.)"
owever, the two genes are independent of each other.  So you could get the
rple form one parent and also get all plicatas from each parent (i.e. no self
ne) and end up with a purple plicata.
-----Original Message-----
rom: Betty Wilkerson &lt;autmirislvr@aol.com&gt;
ent: Jan 9, 2011 12:27 PM
o: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com, iris@hort.net
ubject: [iris] Re: [iris-photos] HYB  seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
,&lt;&lt;If it was a recessive only, then it would have been 100%. The only
xplination  that I can se so far is  two dominants, which gives the
5%&gt;&gt;
I seem to have some problems (still) understanding the difference in breeding
ith dominants & recessives.
Based on the words--dominant should mean that these genes will prevale over
thers.  If you cross two purple selfs, will you not get puple selfs?  You
ave both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.)
Recessive--does this not mean that the genes try to disappear?  Thus you must
ave some on both sides of the cross to have any chance of getting the color
tc..?  You only get pink irises if pink exists on both sides of the cross.
As to rebloom, I've not seen any cross that comes close to producing 100%
ebloom in my climate.
Betty W.   . . . . also posting this on iris talk.


----Original Message-----
rom: Chuck Chapman &lt;irischapman@aim.com&gt;
o: iris-photos &lt;iris-photos@yahoogroups.com&gt;
ent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:45 am
ubject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"

rost Echo and Negra Modelo are both Fall Cyclic rebloomers. So basically
nything crossed with them  will produce some rebloomers. That is because FC
eblooming is basically a  dominant trait.
I would suggest plant vigour and low mature leaf count at bloom time are the
econdary characteristics  which enhance  rebloom and earlier rebloom on
eedlings from a cross with a FC rebloomer. The more I look at this the more
t makes sense. And my own crosses are backing this up.
I had about 40 rebloom seedlings this year by crosses  using these
rincipals.
ost of these were from FC  reblomers crossed  to  plants with high plant
igour, fast increase, and low leaf count. Some crosses producing 50%
ebloomers.
I did get  rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but with  result
ooking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant  genes
s
eing involved in the rebloom complex.  If it was a recessive only, then it
ould have been 100%. The only explination  that I can se so far is  two
ominants, which gives the 25%.  And one of these  dominants very well may be
he Facilitative Vernalization gene.
I have tested  vigour hypothesei  with cross of Forever Blue X Paradigm Shift
 the plant wit hhighest vigour and increase that I know) and did get  one
lant that rebloomed very late. Suggestive of Facilitative Vernalization, as
lant had been mature for a long time,
While FC X FC  may increase number of reblooming seedlings, it is not
ecessarily so.  A cross of Lenora Pearl X October splendor (both FC
ebloomers here) had about  30 seedlings, So far, on 2 years of mature plants
2006 cross)  there has been no rebloom.  I would suspect that crossing
ither
f these to a high vigour, low mature leaf count , non-rebloomer, that I
ould
et much better results
The Summer Rebloomers and Whenever Rebloomers have a recessive gene in their
omplex, so will need a coresponding rebloom gene in the other plant. So a
arrier for Whenever gene will not work when crossed to a Summer  rebloomer
nd vice versa. So right carrier is needed for right plant.
Something like Rain Dance, is not a carrier of anything. But it is a vigorous
rower. So does have one of the secondary characteristics  that can be
elpful.
Certainly keep  your data. I would be very interested in your results, as I'm
till sorting out all the factors.
I'm starting to suspect that  all of the rebloomers have Vernalization
acilitative genes. More research and data is neded.
Chuck Chapman


-----Original Message-----
rom: loic tasquier &lt;tasquierloic@cs.com&gt;
o: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
ent: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:59 pm
ubject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"


;?
es Chuck, "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, Linda still hesitates to register
t.
ven if the texture is a bit thin, there aren't that many excellent
ebloomers
n the market, and this one is very reliable!


 know there is nothing certain to call an iris ' Rebloom Carrier ' but it is
ust a personal way of selecting the irises i think have a potential to give
ebloomers if crossed with rebloomers:
Rain Dance'  does not rebloom but, crossed with 'Frost Echo', has given the
ebloomer 'Raindance Returns'.
Punk' does not rebloom neither but, crossed with 'Negro Modelo', has given
he rebloomer 'Under My Thumb'.
I hope that my B204D = Step Ahead x Forever  is a ' Rebloom Carrier ', having
Forever Blue' as pol parent.
nd finally, i also hope 'Spell' is  a ' Rebloom Carrier ' with so many
ebloomers in his parentage.

 have spent months sorting out into two categories the irises that i thought
ad potentioal, and the ones that didn't.
t's just a handy tool that helps me sort my crosses like this:
 X R : REB X REB
 X C : REB X CARRIER
 X N : REB X NON CARRIER
(I might eventually make a more accurate selection by adding to the REB
riteria E-REB for Early Rebloom and L-REB for Late Rebloom )

 now have hundreds of seedlings that have at least one reblooming parent.
 call them my 'Rebloom Carriers', and even if they are incompatible, I still
ope that after several generations, i will finally get some rebloom.

----- Original Message -----
rom: Chuck Chapman
o: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
ent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 7:03 PM
ubject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"

'm assumming "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, as I'm unable to find any
nformation on it.
hat is the rebloom information on it?
If it is a Fall Cyclic rebloomer , then  you will get a number of good FC
ebloomers from cross with Autumn Jester, and some FC  rebloomer s from the
ther crosses.
If it is a Summer Rebloomers, then no rebloomers from the other crosses
nless
ne of them has the correct  gene set carried as recessive.
Lotic, what  information do you use to classify something as a "Rebloom
arrier" ?
Fall Cyclic and Vernalization facilitative  rebloomers seem to be a result of
 dominant gene, thus you can't have carriers. Although some plants may have
hese  rebloom genes but lack secondary genes to enable rebloom.
For "Summer  rebloomers" and "Whenever Rebloomers"  there are at least one
et
f recessive rebloom genes, so you can have carriers, but two differerent
ypes.  And each seems to also have at least one set of dominant genes as
ell. I suspect "Whenever" rebloomers to have a recessive gene plus two
ominant genes.
Chuck Chapman


-----Original Message-----
rom: loic tasquier &lt;tasquierloic@cs.com&gt;
o: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
ent: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:48 am
ubject: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"



Hello Linda,

Here are the crosses i have managed with your reblooming " Cloud Shadow" =
mmortality X Celebration Song.
s you can see, it is fertile both ways.
They are not TB X TB crosses, i know, but this mail is, in fact, for the
edian Fans:
 will back-cross some of the best babies with their smaller parent.


f you are interested in back-crosses with "Cloud Shadows", i can make them
nd send you the seeds, but that will take some time!






2009cross
DB X TB

'Autumn Jester'
EBLOOMER


Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER
31seeds
2009cross
B X SDB

Cloud Shadow"
EBLOOMER

Punk'
PACE AGE
REBLOOM-
ARRIER
18seeds
2010cross
DB X TB

204D= Step Ahead x Forever Blue
REBLOOM-
ARRIER


Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER
7seeds
2010cross
DB X TB

Rain Dance'
REBLOOM-
ARRIER

"Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER
9seeds
2010cross
B X MTB

Cloud Shadow"
EBLOOMER

Spell'
EBLOOM-
ARRIER
41seeds





f course, the minute i have pictures of the first babies, you will be first
o know!
ill then, we can dream...

oC/c
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