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Re:Rebloom Genetics
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re:Rebloom Genetics
  • From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
  • Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 10:16:17 -0500

 As the FC and summer reblomers are completely independent traits (on rebloom
main trigger) , one won't repress or dominant the other.

If Summer Rebloom genes are there and functioning,? they will work first. Even
if it also has proper genetics for FC rebloom.

All rebloomers will have? some of the secondary factors which enable rebloom
genes to express.

October Splendor, unfortunately, has a high mature leaf count (16)? which can
interfere unless it is crossed to a plant with a low mature leaf count.

Tangerine factor is harder to get then height. A BB crossed to a TB will give
a good number of tall bloomers.

For height, branching and tangerine factor, try Celebration Song. It has
rebloomed in a few locations, and in most locations is a strong fast grower,
having a good number of the needed secondary rebloom factors.

Do you have the environmental conditions needed for good summer rebloom in
your climate? That is? bud set temperatures of 6 nights in a row with min
temperatures in 16-20 C (59-72F approx.)? after the plant has reached leaf
count maturity?? This would likely be July/Aug.

If not, it may be more productive focussing on FC rebloomers.

If you don't get these conditions consistently you may have a lot of problems
in reaching your goal. As you will have problems getting? proper evaluation
of? parent plants and selecting seedlings with these traits.

Chuck Chapman







-----Original Message-----
From: Betty Wilkerson &lt;autmirislvr@aol.com&gt;
To: iris@hort.net
Sent: Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:11 am
Subject: Re: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was  HYB  seeds from "Cloud Shadow"




I've not grown Lenora Pearl since I left Alvaton, but do grow the others.  Of
this list, only Pink Attraction has bloomed in the summer here.  I've made
many crosses with it, but have mixed results.  My best cross with it was when
I put the pollen onto Presence, PA gave Memphis Miss which is a delightful
pink with excellent branching.  No rebloom.  Angel Among Us, & Princess
Teaghen come from this line and are very good irises, but they are among the
select few that have good branching etc.  Most of the PA children have had
tragic branching and bud count.  None of the Pink Attraction children have
rebloomed here.  Mine or others.

&lt;&lt;For pink rebloomers? , or ones with tttt you have Pinkness, Pink
Attraction,
October Splendor, and Lenora Pearl to start&gt;&gt;



October Splendor makes a beautiful clump in bloom and does well here, but does
bloom short.  I hate to use anything that doesn't contribute to the main goal.
If you are correct and the fall cycle rebloomers are dominant, I don't want to
block summer bloom by using it, yet it is my best bet.  Maybe I'll use it this
spring.

Pinkness has faults I don't want to include.  I do have a baby ribbon pink
seedling from Memphis Miss X Frappe that I'm tempted to rescue for breeding,
but still no summer rebloom.

I've not bred with SDBs until lately.  My collection is small.  This summer
was so hot I lost some of my SDBs despite them having some of my precious
shade.  I do need to get Precious Little Pink.

Thanks so much for your patience.  Each time we do this, I think of something
new to try, or I'm reminded of something I've neglected or forgotten.

Betty W . . .  I continue to learn.


-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Chapman &lt;irischapman@aim.com&gt;
To: iris &lt;iris@hort.net&gt;
Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:33 pm
Subject: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"


A plant with tttt will be orange or pink or white with red beard. With one or
ore T it will be yellow. (ignoring anthocyanin)
Dominant Ameona? is just that. One gene does it all.? Where you get problems
s with the Ae (anthocyanin enhancemet gene) which produces AVI (anthocyanin
ascular intrusions)? which makes the anthocyanin darker. Thus it takes more
hen one?? of the repression genes to do its effect.
e will make a neglecta from a flower that would otherwise just be an amoena.
For pink rebloomers? , or ones with tttt you have Pinkness, Pink Attraction,
ctober Splendor, and Lenora Pearl to start. And a few others as well.
recious Little Pink, and IB is also a good start.? For SDB you have Autumn
angerine and Autumn Maple.? And as I found out this year, my own Juiced Up
an also rebloom, in a longer growing season as we had this year.
If you carefully study of? your yellows from tttt crosses, you can start to
ake educated guess to ones with Ttttt? genetics. And test it out. I think I
an tell, but it is a very subltle? differernce between a TTtt and a Tttt.
But as you have noted, you don't know what recessives are there until you
have
ried all the crosses.
Chuck Chapman


----Original Message-----
rom: Betty Wilkerson &lt;autmirislvr@aol.com&gt;
o: iris@hort.net
ent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:50 pm
ubject: Re: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was  HYB  seeds from "Cloud Shadow"


huck,
How can we tell by looking at a plant if it's Tttt or tttt (just for
nstance.?)
Somewhere back through the years, I've picked up the information that the
only
ay you can really tell what any given iris is (is) by seeing what it produces
n it's children?
&lt;&lt;If a plant has? one dominant gene, for example a yellow with three t
enes?(Tttt) is crossed with a tttt? (pink)? flower, half of the offspring
ill have a T gene and will be yellow (assuming all other genes are
ontrolled)&gt;&gt;

lt;&lt;If a plant has two? independent dominant genes,&gt;&gt;
By independent do you mean dominant genes that aren't linked in any way?
Chuck, I've always been told that recessive genes, especially working with
the
angerince factor, meant I would have to bloom a lot of seedlings just to get
 couple of keepers.  For instance:  Rebloomers with the tangerine factor are
lmost non existent in my area.  I'm left with trying to create what I want by
utcrossing rebloomers (non-tangerine) with oncers (tangerine factor) and then
rossing back in later generations.  A tedious job.
For instance, I've crossed Renown onto one of my pink irises.  I have a
decent
avender seedling with yellow beard (expected) which I now need to cross back
o reblooming pink.
Would it make sense for me to create a good rebloomer that contains all of
the
ecessive colors I want--white with red beard, pink, orange, & red bearded
ellow.  (tangerine factors)  Then use it to breed back to the various colors.
oes this have any merit?
Doesn't it take two dominant amoenas to produce a dominant amoena?
Regards,
Betty

----Original Message-----
rom: Chuck Chapman &lt;irischapman@aim.com&gt;
o: iris &lt;iris@hort.net&gt;
ent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 3:55 pm
ubject: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"

Two plants that are simple recessive for a trait, such as? the tangerine
ctor, that produces pink. If crossed with each other will produce all pink
owers, as there are no other? genes present. that is the gene for
nscribing? (modifying lycopene into beta-carotene) are not present.
f a plant has? one dominant gene, for example a yellow with three t genes?
ttt) is crossed with a tttt? (pink)? flower, half of the offspring will have
T gene and will be yellow (assuming all other genes are controlled)
f a plant has two? independent dominant genes, for example? one dominant
oena? gene and one anthocyanin gene (white base in this case)? and it is
ossed to a white recessive ( not a glaciata) , then half the plants will get
e anthocyanin, and half will get the amoena. Thus? 1/4 of the seedlings will
 amoena,? And 1/4 will be solid blue.
hat is because half of the plants that don't receive anthocyanin? will
ceive amoena gene, but will not have any anthocyanin,?
nother way of looking at it is that? half of the plants receiving? amoena
ne? will? not receive the anthocyanin gene.
alf of the plants receiving anthocyanin gene will? also receive amoena gene.
us the 1/4? of the plants show effect of getting?? a copy? of each dominant
ne.
ope this clarrifyies? situation.
huck Chapman

----Original Message-----
om: Betty Wilkerson &lt;autmirislvr@aol.com&gt;
: iris@hort.net
nt: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 3:41 pm
bject: Re: [iris]  HYB  seeds from "Cloud Shadow"

rry, Paul.  My examples were clumsy and incorrect.    I didn't really mean
 bring in the anthocynan vs carotenoid factors.  Bad examples.  I understand
at color and pattern are two different sets of genes and work independently.
nda has walked me through this enough times that I think I finally have it.
uderstand this below.
lt;&lt; Only one Dominant purple gene of the four that can exist is needed to

rple colored flowers. For a Recessive to "show"
mpletely a plant needs all 4 recessive genes (in tetraploids) to be
esent.&gt;&gt;
y lack of clarity comes from classing summer rebloomers as recessive and
all
cle rebloomers as dominant.
hat I'm not understanding is where Chuck states:  (in reference to genes and
bloom)
If it was a recessive only, then it would be 100%."  From the paragraph
low.
gt;&lt;&lt;I did get  rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but
th
sult
t;looking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant
nes

t;being involved in the rebloom complex.  If it was a recessive only, then

t;would have been 100%. The only explination  that I can se so far is  two
t;dominants, which gives the 25%.  And one of these  dominants very well may

t;the Facilitative Vernalization gene.&gt;&gt;
y thought was that two recessives would produce fewer rebloomers than two
minants, based on my understanding of the terms.
hinking out loud here:
o . . . a recessive must have 4 copies per side to express for a total of 8
pies of the gene (summer reboom).   . . . Okay, I see why Chuck says it
ould be 100%!  In my experience, this doesn't happen.  Must be something
se or some combination.
hile a dominant would only need one on each side, there would only be 2
pies and therefore produce 25%.
 think I understand the theory, now.  It doesn't correlate with what I get
re.  Of course, I've no idea what my percentage of rebloom would be if my
edlings were grown in a more hospitable climate.
hat types of modifiers and triggers do we recognize in rebloom, separate
rom
e genes?
Betty W.

---Original Message-----
om: Paul Archer &lt;pharcher@mindspring.com&gt;
: iris &lt;iris@hort.net&gt;
nt: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:40 pm
bject: Re: [iris] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
es, however just because a gene is Dominant does not mean all four genes
sent in the plant for that character are "purple" genes.  Only one Dominant
ple gene of the four that can exist is needed to be purple colored flowers.
 a Recessive to "show" completely a plant needs all 4 recessive genes (in
raploids) to be present.  You only need one Dominant in each parent for each
ent to be purple.  There are recessives that go along with the Dominants
at
 emerge when two recessives from one plant meet the same two recessives from
ther plant.
 when you cross two purple selfs you might get some roses, some plicatas,
me
tes and glaciatas if the genes for those are there not expressing in the two
ple flowers.  Depending on the type of purple the colored flower you are
ng you may also get carotenoid amoenas as well.
w a rhetorically supposition... Is purple form anthocyanin only or a
bination with carotenoids as well?  An anthocyanin purple self flower could
e all four genes for carotenoid amoenas and not show it because it produces
carotenoid in the petals.
so just to be sure you understand this comment is correct....
u have both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.)"
wever, the two genes are independent of each other.  So you could get the
ple form one parent and also get all plicatas from each parent (i.e. no self
e) and end up with a purple plicata.
----Original Message-----
om: Betty Wilkerson &lt;autmirislvr@aol.com&gt;
nt: Jan 9, 2011 12:27 PM
: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com, iris@hort.net
bject: [iris] Re: [iris-photos] HYB  seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
&lt;&lt;If it was a recessive only, then it would have been 100%. The only
plination  that I can se so far is  two dominants, which gives the
%&gt;&gt;
 seem to have some problems (still) understanding the difference in breeding
th dominants & recessives.
ased on the words--dominant should mean that these genes will prevale over
hers.  If you cross two purple selfs, will you not get puple selfs?  You
ve both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.)
ecessive--does this not mean that the genes try to disappear?  Thus you must
ve some on both sides of the cross to have any chance of getting the color
c..?  You only get pink irises if pink exists on both sides of the cross.
s to rebloom, I've not seen any cross that comes close to producing 100%
bloom in my climate.
etty W.   . . . . also posting this on iris talk.

---Original Message-----
om: Chuck Chapman &lt;irischapman@aim.com&gt;
: iris-photos &lt;iris-photos@yahoogroups.com&gt;
nt: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:45 am
bject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
rost Echo and Negra Modelo are both Fall Cyclic rebloomers. So basically
ything crossed with them  will produce some rebloomers. That is because FC
blooming is basically a  dominant trait.
 would suggest plant vigour and low mature leaf count at bloom time are the
condary characteristics  which enhance  rebloom and earlier rebloom on
edlings from a cross with a FC rebloomer. The more I look at this the more
 makes sense. And my own crosses are backing this up.
 had about 40 rebloom seedlings this year by crosses  using these
incipals.
st of these were from FC  reblomers crossed  to  plants with high plant
gour, fast increase, and low leaf count. Some crosses producing 50%
bloomers.
 did get  rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but with  result
oking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant  genes

ing involved in the rebloom complex.  If it was a recessive only, then it
uld have been 100%. The only explination  that I can se so far is  two
minants, which gives the 25%.  And one of these  dominants very well may be
e Facilitative Vernalization gene.
 have tested  vigour hypothesei  with cross of Forever Blue X Paradigm Shift
the plant wit hhighest vigour and increase that I know) and did get  one
ant that rebloomed very late. Suggestive of Facilitative Vernalization, as
ant had been mature for a long time,
hile FC X FC  may increase number of reblooming seedlings, it is not
cessarily so.  A cross of Lenora Pearl X October splendor (both FC
bloomers here) had about  30 seedlings, So far, on 2 years of mature plants
006 cross)  there has been no rebloom.  I would suspect that crossing
ther
 these to a high vigour, low mature leaf count , non-rebloomer, that I
uld
t much better results
he Summer Rebloomers and Whenever Rebloomers have a recessive gene in their
mplex, so will need a coresponding rebloom gene in the other plant. So a
rrier for Whenever gene will not work when crossed to a Summer  rebloomer
d vice versa. So right carrier is needed for right plant.
omething like Rain Dance, is not a carrier of anything. But it is a vigorous
ower. So does have one of the secondary characteristics  that can be
lpful.
ertainly keep  your data. I would be very interested in your results, as I'm
ill sorting out all the factors.
'm starting to suspect that  all of the rebloomers have Vernalization
cilitative genes. More research and data is neded.
huck Chapman

----Original Message-----
om: loic tasquier &lt;tasquierloic@cs.com&gt;
: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
nt: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:59 pm
bject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"

?
s Chuck, "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, Linda still hesitates to register
.
en if the texture is a bit thin, there aren't that many excellent
bloomers
 the market, and this one is very reliable!

know there is nothing certain to call an iris ' Rebloom Carrier ' but it is
st a personal way of selecting the irises i think have a potential to give
bloomers if crossed with rebloomers:
ain Dance'  does not rebloom but, crossed with 'Frost Echo', has given the
bloomer 'Raindance Returns'.
unk' does not rebloom neither but, crossed with 'Negro Modelo', has given
e rebloomer 'Under My Thumb'.
 hope that my B204D = Step Ahead x Forever  is a ' Rebloom Carrier ', having
orever Blue' as pol parent.
d finally, i also hope 'Spell' is  a ' Rebloom Carrier ' with so many
bloomers in his parentage.
 have spent months sorting out into two categories the irises that i thought
d potentioal, and the ones that didn't.
's just a handy tool that helps me sort my crosses like this:
X R : REB X REB
X C : REB X CARRIER
X N : REB X NON CARRIER
I might eventually make a more accurate selection by adding to the REB
iteria E-REB for Early Rebloom and L-REB for Late Rebloom )
 now have hundreds of seedlings that have at least one reblooming parent.
call them my 'Rebloom Carriers', and even if they are incompatible, I still
pe that after several generations, i will finally get some rebloom.
----- Original Message -----
om: Chuck Chapman
: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
nt: Saturday, January 08, 2011 7:03 PM
bject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
'm assumming "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, as I'm unable to find any
formation on it.
at is the rebloom information on it?
f it is a Fall Cyclic rebloomer , then  you will get a number of good FC
bloomers from cross with Autumn Jester, and some FC  rebloomer s from the
her crosses.
f it is a Summer Rebloomers, then no rebloomers from the other crosses
less
e of them has the correct  gene set carried as recessive.
otic, what  information do you use to classify something as a "Rebloom
rrier" ?
all Cyclic and Vernalization facilitative  rebloomers seem to be a result of
dominant gene, thus you can't have carriers. Although some plants may have
ese  rebloom genes but lack secondary genes to enable rebloom.
or "Summer  rebloomers" and "Whenever Rebloomers"  there are at least one
t
 recessive rebloom genes, so you can have carriers, but two differerent
pes.  And each seems to also have at least one set of dominant genes as
ll. I suspect "Whenever" rebloomers to have a recessive gene plus two
minant genes.
huck Chapman

----Original Message-----
om: loic tasquier &lt;tasquierloic@cs.com&gt;
: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
nt: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:48 am
bject: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"

Hello Linda,
Here are the crosses i have managed with your reblooming " Cloud Shadow" =
mortality X Celebration Song.
 you can see, it is fertile both ways.
hey are not TB X TB crosses, i know, but this mail is, in fact, for the
dian Fans:
will back-cross some of the best babies with their smaller parent.

 you are interested in back-crosses with "Cloud Shadows", i can make them
d send you the seeds, but that will take some time!



009cross
B X TB
'Autumn Jester'
BLOOMER

loud Shadow" REBLOOMER
1seeds
009cross
 X SDB
Cloud Shadow"
BLOOMER
Punk'
ACE AGE
EBLOOM-
RRIER
8seeds
010cross
B X TB
204D= Step Ahead x Forever Blue
EBLOOM-
RRIER

loud Shadow" REBLOOMER
seeds
010cross
B X TB
Rain Dance'
EBLOOM-
RRIER
"Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER
seeds
010cross
 X MTB
Cloud Shadow"
BLOOMER
Spell'
BLOOM-
RRIER
1seeds


f course, the minute i have pictures of the first babies, you will be first
 know!
ll then, we can dream...
oC/c
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