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Re: Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
  • From: "loic tasquier" <tasquierloic@cs.com>
  • Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 17:35:24 +0100

Among all my TB X TB seedlings (that come from the earlier crosses i've made)
, the only one that reblooms is B268C = Foxy lady X Midsummer's Eve:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/loic_tasquier/3198810297/

(Midsummer's Eve's pod parent is 'Immortality')
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Betty Wilkerson
  To: iris@hort.net
  Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 2:04 PM
  Subject: Re: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"


  I've not grown Lenora Pearl since I left Alvaton, but do grow the others.
Of
  this list, only Pink Attraction has bloomed in the summer here.  I've made
  many crosses with it, but have mixed results.  My best cross with it was
when
  I put the pollen onto Presence, PA gave Memphis Miss which is a delightful
  pink with excellent branching.  No rebloom.  Angel Among Us, & Princess
  Teaghen come from this line and are very good irises, but they are among
the
  select few that have good branching etc.  Most of the PA children have had
  tragic branching and bud count.  None of the Pink Attraction children have
  rebloomed here.  Mine or others.

  <<For pink rebloomers? , or ones with tttt you have Pinkness, Pink
  Attraction,
  October Splendor, and Lenora Pearl to start>>



  October Splendor makes a beautiful clump in bloom and does well here, but
does
  bloom short.  I hate to use anything that doesn't contribute to the main
goal.
  If you are correct and the fall cycle rebloomers are dominant, I don't want
to
  block summer bloom by using it, yet it is my best bet.  Maybe I'll use it
this
  spring.

  Pinkness has faults I don't want to include.  I do have a baby ribbon pink
  seedling from Memphis Miss X Frappe that I'm tempted to rescue for
breeding,
  but still no summer rebloom.

  I've not bred with SDBs until lately.  My collection is small.  This summer
  was so hot I lost some of my SDBs despite them having some of my precious
  shade.  I do need to get Precious Little Pink.

  Thanks so much for your patience.  Each time we do this, I think of
something
  new to try, or I'm reminded of something I've neglected or forgotten.

  Betty W . . .  I continue to learn.


  -----Original Message-----
  From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
  To: iris <iris@hort.net>
  Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:33 pm
  Subject: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"


  A plant with tttt will be orange or pink or white with red beard. With one
or
  ore T it will be yellow. (ignoring anthocyanin)
  Dominant Ameona? is just that. One gene does it all.? Where you get
problems
  s with the Ae (anthocyanin enhancemet gene) which produces AVI (anthocyanin
  ascular intrusions)? which makes the anthocyanin darker. Thus it takes more
  hen one?? of the repression genes to do its effect.
  e will make a neglecta from a flower that would otherwise just be an
amoena.
  For pink rebloomers? , or ones with tttt you have Pinkness, Pink
Attraction,
  ctober Splendor, and Lenora Pearl to start. And a few others as well.
  recious Little Pink, and IB is also a good start.? For SDB you have Autumn
  angerine and Autumn Maple.? And as I found out this year, my own Juiced Up
  an also rebloom, in a longer growing season as we had this year.
  If you carefully study of? your yellows from tttt crosses, you can start to
  ake educated guess to ones with Ttttt? genetics. And test it out. I think I
  an tell, but it is a very subltle? differernce between a TTtt and a Tttt.
  But as you have noted, you don't know what recessives are there until you
  have
  ried all the crosses.
  Chuck Chapman


  ----Original Message-----
  rom: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>
  o: iris@hort.net
  ent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:50 pm
  ubject: Re: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was  HYB  seeds from "Cloud Shadow"


  huck,
  How can we tell by looking at a plant if it's Tttt or tttt (just for
  nstance.?)
  Somewhere back through the years, I've picked up the information that the
  only
  ay you can really tell what any given iris is (is) by seeing what it
produces
  n it's children?
  <<If a plant has? one dominant gene, for example a yellow with three t
  enes?(Tttt) is crossed with a tttt? (pink)? flower, half of the offspring
  ill have a T gene and will be yellow (assuming all other genes are
  ontrolled)>>

  lt;<If a plant has two? independent dominant genes,>>
  By independent do you mean dominant genes that aren't linked in any way?
  Chuck, I've always been told that recessive genes, especially working with
  the
  angerince factor, meant I would have to bloom a lot of seedlings just to
get
   couple of keepers.  For instance:  Rebloomers with the tangerine factor
are
  lmost non existent in my area.  I'm left with trying to create what I want
by
  utcrossing rebloomers (non-tangerine) with oncers (tangerine factor) and
then
  rossing back in later generations.  A tedious job.
  For instance, I've crossed Renown onto one of my pink irises.  I have a
  decent
  avender seedling with yellow beard (expected) which I now need to cross
back
  o reblooming pink.
  Would it make sense for me to create a good rebloomer that contains all of
  the
  ecessive colors I want--white with red beard, pink, orange, & red bearded
  ellow.  (tangerine factors)  Then use it to breed back to the various
colors.
  oes this have any merit?
  Doesn't it take two dominant amoenas to produce a dominant amoena?
  Regards,
  Betty

  ----Original Message-----
  rom: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
  o: iris <iris@hort.net>
  ent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 3:55 pm
  ubject: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"

  Two plants that are simple recessive for a trait, such as? the tangerine
  ctor, that produces pink. If crossed with each other will produce all pink
  owers, as there are no other? genes present. that is the gene for
  nscribing? (modifying lycopene into beta-carotene) are not present.
  f a plant has? one dominant gene, for example a yellow with three t genes?
  ttt) is crossed with a tttt? (pink)? flower, half of the offspring will
have
  T gene and will be yellow (assuming all other genes are controlled)
  f a plant has two? independent dominant genes, for example? one dominant
  oena? gene and one anthocyanin gene (white base in this case)? and it is
  ossed to a white recessive ( not a glaciata) , then half the plants will
get
  e anthocyanin, and half will get the amoena. Thus? 1/4 of the seedlings
will
   amoena,? And 1/4 will be solid blue.
  hat is because half of the plants that don't receive anthocyanin? will
  ceive amoena gene, but will not have any anthocyanin,?
  nother way of looking at it is that? half of the plants receiving? amoena
  ne? will? not receive the anthocyanin gene.
  alf of the plants receiving anthocyanin gene will? also receive amoena
gene.
  us the 1/4? of the plants show effect of getting?? a copy? of each dominant
  ne.
  ope this clarrifyies? situation.
  huck Chapman

  ----Original Message-----
  om: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>
  : iris@hort.net
  nt: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 3:41 pm
  bject: Re: [iris]  HYB  seeds from "Cloud Shadow"

  rry, Paul.  My examples were clumsy and incorrect.    I didn't really mean
   bring in the anthocynan vs carotenoid factors.  Bad examples.  I
understand
  at color and pattern are two different sets of genes and work
independently.
  nda has walked me through this enough times that I think I finally have it.
  uderstand this below.
  lt;< Only one Dominant purple gene of the four that can exist is needed to

  rple colored flowers. For a Recessive to "show"
  mpletely a plant needs all 4 recessive genes (in tetraploids) to be
  esent.>>
  y lack of clarity comes from classing summer rebloomers as recessive and
  all
  cle rebloomers as dominant.
  hat I'm not understanding is where Chuck states:  (in reference to genes
and
  bloom)
  If it was a recessive only, then it would be 100%."  From the paragraph
  low.
  gt;<<I did get  rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but
  th
  sult
  t;looking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant
  nes

  t;being involved in the rebloom complex.  If it was a recessive only, then

  t;would have been 100%. The only explination  that I can se so far is  two
  t;dominants, which gives the 25%.  And one of these  dominants very well
may

  t;the Facilitative Vernalization gene.>>
  y thought was that two recessives would produce fewer rebloomers than two
  minants, based on my understanding of the terms.
  hinking out loud here:
  o . . . a recessive must have 4 copies per side to express for a total of 8
  pies of the gene (summer reboom).   . . . Okay, I see why Chuck says it
  ould be 100%!  In my experience, this doesn't happen.  Must be something
  se or some combination.
  hile a dominant would only need one on each side, there would only be 2
  pies and therefore produce 25%.
   think I understand the theory, now.  It doesn't correlate with what I get
  re.  Of course, I've no idea what my percentage of rebloom would be if my
  edlings were grown in a more hospitable climate.
  hat types of modifiers and triggers do we recognize in rebloom, separate
  rom
  e genes?
  Betty W.

  ---Original Message-----
  om: Paul Archer <pharcher@mindspring.com>
  : iris <iris@hort.net>
  nt: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:40 pm
  bject: Re: [iris] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
  es, however just because a gene is Dominant does not mean all four genes
  sent in the plant for that character are "purple" genes.  Only one Dominant
  ple gene of the four that can exist is needed to be purple colored flowers.
   a Recessive to "show" completely a plant needs all 4 recessive genes (in
  raploids) to be present.  You only need one Dominant in each parent for
each
  ent to be purple.  There are recessives that go along with the Dominants
  at
   emerge when two recessives from one plant meet the same two recessives
from
  ther plant.
   when you cross two purple selfs you might get some roses, some plicatas,
  me
  tes and glaciatas if the genes for those are there not expressing in the
two
  ple flowers.  Depending on the type of purple the colored flower you are
  ng you may also get carotenoid amoenas as well.
  w a rhetorically supposition... Is purple form anthocyanin only or a
  bination with carotenoids as well?  An anthocyanin purple self flower could
  e all four genes for carotenoid amoenas and not show it because it produces
  carotenoid in the petals.
  so just to be sure you understand this comment is correct....
  u have both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.)"
  wever, the two genes are independent of each other.  So you could get the
  ple form one parent and also get all plicatas from each parent (i.e. no
self
  e) and end up with a purple plicata.
  ----Original Message-----
  om: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>
  nt: Jan 9, 2011 12:27 PM
  : iris-photos@yahoogroups.com, iris@hort.net
  bject: [iris] Re: [iris-photos] HYB  seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
  <<If it was a recessive only, then it would have been 100%. The only
  plination  that I can se so far is  two dominants, which gives the
  %>>
   seem to have some problems (still) understanding the difference in
breeding
  th dominants & recessives.
  ased on the words--dominant should mean that these genes will prevale over
  hers.  If you cross two purple selfs, will you not get puple selfs?  You
  ve both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.)
  ecessive--does this not mean that the genes try to disappear?  Thus you
must
  ve some on both sides of the cross to have any chance of getting the color
  c..?  You only get pink irises if pink exists on both sides of the cross.
  s to rebloom, I've not seen any cross that comes close to producing 100%
  bloom in my climate.
  etty W.   . . . . also posting this on iris talk.

  ---Original Message-----
  om: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
  : iris-photos <iris-photos@yahoogroups.com>
  nt: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:45 am
  bject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
  rost Echo and Negra Modelo are both Fall Cyclic rebloomers. So basically
  ything crossed with them  will produce some rebloomers. That is because FC
  blooming is basically a  dominant trait.
   would suggest plant vigour and low mature leaf count at bloom time are the
  condary characteristics  which enhance  rebloom and earlier rebloom on
  edlings from a cross with a FC rebloomer. The more I look at this the more
   makes sense. And my own crosses are backing this up.
   had about 40 rebloom seedlings this year by crosses  using these
  incipals.
  st of these were from FC  reblomers crossed  to  plants with high plant
  gour, fast increase, and low leaf count. Some crosses producing 50%
  bloomers.
   did get  rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but with  result
  oking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant  genes

  ing involved in the rebloom complex.  If it was a recessive only, then it
  uld have been 100%. The only explination  that I can se so far is  two
  minants, which gives the 25%.  And one of these  dominants very well may be
  e Facilitative Vernalization gene.
   have tested  vigour hypothesei  with cross of Forever Blue X Paradigm
Shift
  the plant wit hhighest vigour and increase that I know) and did get  one
  ant that rebloomed very late. Suggestive of Facilitative Vernalization, as
  ant had been mature for a long time,
  hile FC X FC  may increase number of reblooming seedlings, it is not
  cessarily so.  A cross of Lenora Pearl X October splendor (both FC
  bloomers here) had about  30 seedlings, So far, on 2 years of mature plants
  006 cross)  there has been no rebloom.  I would suspect that crossing
  ther
   these to a high vigour, low mature leaf count , non-rebloomer, that I
  uld
  t much better results
  he Summer Rebloomers and Whenever Rebloomers have a recessive gene in their
  mplex, so will need a coresponding rebloom gene in the other plant. So a
  rrier for Whenever gene will not work when crossed to a Summer  rebloomer
  d vice versa. So right carrier is needed for right plant.
  omething like Rain Dance, is not a carrier of anything. But it is a
vigorous
  ower. So does have one of the secondary characteristics  that can be
  lpful.
  ertainly keep  your data. I would be very interested in your results, as
I'm
  ill sorting out all the factors.
  'm starting to suspect that  all of the rebloomers have Vernalization
  cilitative genes. More research and data is neded.
  huck Chapman

  ----Original Message-----
  om: loic tasquier <tasquierloic@cs.com>
  : iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
  nt: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:59 pm
  bject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"

  ?
  s Chuck, "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, Linda still hesitates to register
  .
  en if the texture is a bit thin, there aren't that many excellent
  bloomers
   the market, and this one is very reliable!

  know there is nothing certain to call an iris ' Rebloom Carrier ' but it is
  st a personal way of selecting the irises i think have a potential to give
  bloomers if crossed with rebloomers:
  ain Dance'  does not rebloom but, crossed with 'Frost Echo', has given the
  bloomer 'Raindance Returns'.
  unk' does not rebloom neither but, crossed with 'Negro Modelo', has given
  e rebloomer 'Under My Thumb'.
   hope that my B204D = Step Ahead x Forever  is a ' Rebloom Carrier ',
having
  orever Blue' as pol parent.
  d finally, i also hope 'Spell' is  a ' Rebloom Carrier ' with so many
  bloomers in his parentage.
   have spent months sorting out into two categories the irises that i
thought
  d potentioal, and the ones that didn't.
  's just a handy tool that helps me sort my crosses like this:
  X R : REB X REB
  X C : REB X CARRIER
  X N : REB X NON CARRIER
  I might eventually make a more accurate selection by adding to the REB
  iteria E-REB for Early Rebloom and L-REB for Late Rebloom )
   now have hundreds of seedlings that have at least one reblooming parent.
  call them my 'Rebloom Carriers', and even if they are incompatible, I still
  pe that after several generations, i will finally get some rebloom.
  ----- Original Message -----
  om: Chuck Chapman
  : iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
  nt: Saturday, January 08, 2011 7:03 PM
  bject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
  'm assumming "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, as I'm unable to find any
  formation on it.
  at is the rebloom information on it?
  f it is a Fall Cyclic rebloomer , then  you will get a number of good FC
  bloomers from cross with Autumn Jester, and some FC  rebloomer s from the
  her crosses.
  f it is a Summer Rebloomers, then no rebloomers from the other crosses
  less
  e of them has the correct  gene set carried as recessive.
  otic, what  information do you use to classify something as a "Rebloom
  rrier" ?
  all Cyclic and Vernalization facilitative  rebloomers seem to be a result
of
  dominant gene, thus you can't have carriers. Although some plants may have
  ese  rebloom genes but lack secondary genes to enable rebloom.
  or "Summer  rebloomers" and "Whenever Rebloomers"  there are at least one
  t
   recessive rebloom genes, so you can have carriers, but two differerent
  pes.  And each seems to also have at least one set of dominant genes as
  ll. I suspect "Whenever" rebloomers to have a recessive gene plus two
  minant genes.
  huck Chapman

  ----Original Message-----
  om: loic tasquier <tasquierloic@cs.com>
  : iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
  nt: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:48 am
  bject: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"

  Hello Linda,
  Here are the crosses i have managed with your reblooming " Cloud Shadow" =
  mortality X Celebration Song.
   you can see, it is fertile both ways.
  hey are not TB X TB crosses, i know, but this mail is, in fact, for the
  dian Fans:
  will back-cross some of the best babies with their smaller parent.

   you are interested in back-crosses with "Cloud Shadows", i can make them
  d send you the seeds, but that will take some time!



  009cross
  B X TB
  'Autumn Jester'
  BLOOMER

  loud Shadow" REBLOOMER
  1seeds
  009cross
   X SDB
  Cloud Shadow"
  BLOOMER
  Punk'
  ACE AGE
  EBLOOM-
  RRIER
  8seeds
  010cross
  B X TB
  204D= Step Ahead x Forever Blue
  EBLOOM-
  RRIER

  loud Shadow" REBLOOMER
  seeds
  010cross
  B X TB
  Rain Dance'
  EBLOOM-
  RRIER
  "Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER
  seeds
  010cross
   X MTB
  Cloud Shadow"
  BLOOMER
  Spell'
  BLOOM-
  RRIER
  1seeds


  f course, the minute i have pictures of the first babies, you will be first
   know!
  ll then, we can dream...
  oC/c
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