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Re: Re:Rebloom Genetics
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: Re:Rebloom Genetics
  • From: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>
  • Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 19:00:16 -0500 (EST)

This is good to hear.  I thought I'd read, last year or so, that you said the
FC were dominant over summer bloomers.  Or that when both are used, the FC
genes will express over the summer genes.

<<As the FC and summer reblomers are completely independent traits (on rebloom
main trigger) , one won't repress or dominant the other.>>

In the best of all possible worlds . . . my rebloom would start about the end
of Aug.  Anything before that is likely to be melted into a brown glob in our
summer heat.  Unfortunately, most of my cycle rebloomers begin so late that
most of them get hit with a heavy frost around the middle of Oct.  It's been
five years or more since we've had a really good late fall to extend bloom.

The summer of 2006 produced some nice summer bloom.  It's a rare summer that I
don't get a couple of things blooming in the summer.  Mild summers produce
more, of course.  Now that the summers are getting hotter, it's mainly my
seedlings and not always consistent.

One thing that's a bit frustrating is how long it takes my own seedlings to
show their potential.  Two siblings 2025-01Re & 02Re both put up very late
fall stalks (maiden bloom) in 2008.  They both fall bloomed earlier in 2009.
This year, the lavender one put up a stalk in July with half a dozen or so
later in the fall.  The white one started blooming in late August put up 6
stalks before frost.  Constant bloom all fall.  Cross was made the spring of
2005.

Most BBs are still only a generation or two away from the TBs.  They are the
result of selecting short TBs.  Not really a stable class yet, so I would
expect many seedlings to be of TB height.


<<Tangerine factor is harder to get then height. A BB crossed to a TB will
give
a good number of tall bloomers.>>


  Betty W.


-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:24 am
Subject: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics


 As the FC and summer reblomers are completely independent traits (on rebloom
ain trigger) , one won't repress or dominant the other.
If Summer Rebloom genes are there and functioning,? they will work first.
Even
f it also has proper genetics for FC rebloom.
All rebloomers will have? some of the secondary factors which enable rebloom
enes to express.
October Splendor, unfortunately, has a high mature leaf count (16)? which can
nterfere unless it is crossed to a plant with a low mature leaf count.
Tangerine factor is harder to get then height. A BB crossed to a TB will give
 good number of tall bloomers.
For height, branching and tangerine factor, try Celebration Song. It has
ebloomed in a few locations, and in most locations is a strong fast grower,
aving a good number of the needed secondary rebloom factors.
Do you have the environmental conditions needed for good summer rebloom in
our climate? That is? bud set temperatures of 6 nights in a row with min
emperatures in 16-20 C (59-72F approx.)? after the plant has reached leaf
ount maturity?? This would likely be July/Aug.
If not, it may be more productive focussing on FC rebloomers.
If you don't get these conditions consistently you may have a lot of problems
n reaching your goal. As you will have problems getting? proper evaluation
f? parent plants and selecting seedlings with these traits.
Chuck Chapman



-----Original Message-----
rom: Betty Wilkerson &lt;autmirislvr@aol.com&gt;
o: iris@hort.net
ent: Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:11 am
ubject: Re: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was  HYB  seeds from "Cloud Shadow"


've not grown Lenora Pearl since I left Alvaton, but do grow the others.  Of
his list, only Pink Attraction has bloomed in the summer here.  I've made
any crosses with it, but have mixed results.  My best cross with it was when
 put the pollen onto Presence, PA gave Memphis Miss which is a delightful
ink with excellent branching.  No rebloom.  Angel Among Us, & Princess
eaghen come from this line and are very good irises, but they are among the
elect few that have good branching etc.  Most of the PA children have had
ragic branching and bud count.  None of the Pink Attraction children have
ebloomed here.  Mine or others.
&lt;&lt;For pink rebloomers? , or ones with tttt you have Pinkness, Pink
ttraction,
ctober Splendor, and Lenora Pearl to start&gt;&gt;

October Splendor makes a beautiful clump in bloom and does well here, but
does
loom short.  I hate to use anything that doesn't contribute to the main goal.
f you are correct and the fall cycle rebloomers are dominant, I don't want to
lock summer bloom by using it, yet it is my best bet.  Maybe I'll use it this
pring.
Pinkness has faults I don't want to include.  I do have a baby ribbon pink
eedling from Memphis Miss X Frappe that I'm tempted to rescue for breeding,
ut still no summer rebloom.
I've not bred with SDBs until lately.  My collection is small.  This summer
as so hot I lost some of my SDBs despite them having some of my precious
hade.  I do need to get Precious Little Pink.
Thanks so much for your patience.  Each time we do this, I think of something
ew to try, or I'm reminded of something I've neglected or forgotten.
Betty W . . .  I continue to learn.

----Original Message-----
rom: Chuck Chapman &lt;irischapman@aim.com&gt;
o: iris &lt;iris@hort.net&gt;
ent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:33 pm
ubject: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"

 plant with tttt will be orange or pink or white with red beard. With one or
re T it will be yellow. (ignoring anthocyanin)
ominant Ameona? is just that. One gene does it all.? Where you get problems
 with the Ae (anthocyanin enhancemet gene) which produces AVI (anthocyanin
scular intrusions)? which makes the anthocyanin darker. Thus it takes more
en one?? of the repression genes to do its effect.
 will make a neglecta from a flower that would otherwise just be an amoena.
or pink rebloomers? , or ones with tttt you have Pinkness, Pink Attraction,
tober Splendor, and Lenora Pearl to start. And a few others as well.
ecious Little Pink, and IB is also a good start.? For SDB you have Autumn
ngerine and Autumn Maple.? And as I found out this year, my own Juiced Up
n also rebloom, in a longer growing season as we had this year.
f you carefully study of? your yellows from tttt crosses, you can start to
ke educated guess to ones with Ttttt? genetics. And test it out. I think I
n tell, but it is a very subltle? differernce between a TTtt and a Tttt.
ut as you have noted, you don't know what recessives are there until you
ave
ied all the crosses.
huck Chapman

---Original Message-----
om: Betty Wilkerson &lt;autmirislvr@aol.com&gt;
: iris@hort.net
nt: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:50 pm
bject: Re: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was  HYB  seeds from "Cloud Shadow"

uck,
ow can we tell by looking at a plant if it's Tttt or tttt (just for
stance.?)
omewhere back through the years, I've picked up the information that the
nly
y you can really tell what any given iris is (is) by seeing what it produces
 it's children?
lt;&lt;If a plant has? one dominant gene, for example a yellow with three t
nes?(Tttt) is crossed with a tttt? (pink)? flower, half of the offspring
ll have a T gene and will be yellow (assuming all other genes are
ntrolled)&gt;&gt;
lt;&lt;If a plant has two? independent dominant genes,&gt;&gt;
y independent do you mean dominant genes that aren't linked in any way?
huck, I've always been told that recessive genes, especially working with
he
ngerince factor, meant I would have to bloom a lot of seedlings just to get
couple of keepers.  For instance:  Rebloomers with the tangerine factor are
most non existent in my area.  I'm left with trying to create what I want by
tcrossing rebloomers (non-tangerine) with oncers (tangerine factor) and then
ossing back in later generations.  A tedious job.
or instance, I've crossed Renown onto one of my pink irises.  I have a
ecent
vender seedling with yellow beard (expected) which I now need to cross back
 reblooming pink.
ould it make sense for me to create a good rebloomer that contains all of
he
cessive colors I want--white with red beard, pink, orange, & red bearded
llow.  (tangerine factors)  Then use it to breed back to the various colors.
es this have any merit?
oesn't it take two dominant amoenas to produce a dominant amoena?
egards,
etty
----Original Message-----
om: Chuck Chapman &lt;irischapman@aim.com&gt;
: iris &lt;iris@hort.net&gt;
nt: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 3:55 pm
bject: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
Two plants that are simple recessive for a trait, such as? the tangerine
tor, that produces pink. If crossed with each other will produce all pink
wers, as there are no other? genes present. that is the gene for
scribing? (modifying lycopene into beta-carotene) are not present.
 a plant has? one dominant gene, for example a yellow with three t genes?
tt) is crossed with a tttt? (pink)? flower, half of the offspring will have
 gene and will be yellow (assuming all other genes are controlled)
 a plant has two? independent dominant genes, for example? one dominant
ena? gene and one anthocyanin gene (white base in this case)? and it is
ssed to a white recessive ( not a glaciata) , then half the plants will get
 anthocyanin, and half will get the amoena. Thus? 1/4 of the seedlings will
amoena,? And 1/4 will be solid blue.
at is because half of the plants that don't receive anthocyanin? will
eive amoena gene, but will not have any anthocyanin,?
other way of looking at it is that? half of the plants receiving? amoena
e? will? not receive the anthocyanin gene.
lf of the plants receiving anthocyanin gene will? also receive amoena gene.
s the 1/4? of the plants show effect of getting?? a copy? of each dominant
e.
pe this clarrifyies? situation.
uck Chapman
----Original Message-----
m: Betty Wilkerson &lt;autmirislvr@aol.com&gt;
 iris@hort.net
t: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 3:41 pm
ject: Re: [iris]  HYB  seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
rry, Paul.  My examples were clumsy and incorrect.    I didn't really mean
bring in the anthocynan vs carotenoid factors.  Bad examples.  I understand
t color and pattern are two different sets of genes and work independently.
da has walked me through this enough times that I think I finally have it.
derstand this below.
t;&lt; Only one Dominant purple gene of the four that can exist is needed to
rple colored flowers. For a Recessive to "show"
pletely a plant needs all 4 recessive genes (in tetraploids) to be
sent.&gt;&gt;
 lack of clarity comes from classing summer rebloomers as recessive and
ll
le rebloomers as dominant.
at I'm not understanding is where Chuck states:  (in reference to genes and
loom)
f it was a recessive only, then it would be 100%."  From the paragraph
ow.
t;&lt;&lt;I did get  rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but
h
ult
;looking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant
es
t;being involved in the rebloom complex.  If it was a recessive only, then
t;would have been 100%. The only explination  that I can se so far is  two
;dominants, which gives the 25%.  And one of these  dominants very well may
t;the Facilitative Vernalization gene.&gt;&gt;
 thought was that two recessives would produce fewer rebloomers than two
inants, based on my understanding of the terms.
inking out loud here:
 . . . a recessive must have 4 copies per side to express for a total of 8
ies of the gene (summer reboom).   . . . Okay, I see why Chuck says it
uld be 100%!  In my experience, this doesn't happen.  Must be something
e or some combination.
ile a dominant would only need one on each side, there would only be 2
ies and therefore produce 25%.
think I understand the theory, now.  It doesn't correlate with what I get
e.  Of course, I've no idea what my percentage of rebloom would be if my
dlings were grown in a more hospitable climate.
at types of modifiers and triggers do we recognize in rebloom, separate
om
 genes?
etty W.
---Original Message-----
m: Paul Archer &lt;pharcher@mindspring.com&gt;
 iris &lt;iris@hort.net&gt;
t: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:40 pm
ject: Re: [iris] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
s, however just because a gene is Dominant does not mean all four genes
ent in the plant for that character are "purple" genes.  Only one Dominant
le gene of the four that can exist is needed to be purple colored flowers.
a Recessive to "show" completely a plant needs all 4 recessive genes (in
aploids) to be present.  You only need one Dominant in each parent for each
nt to be purple.  There are recessives that go along with the Dominants
t
emerge when two recessives from one plant meet the same two recessives from
her plant.
when you cross two purple selfs you might get some roses, some plicatas,
e
es and glaciatas if the genes for those are there not expressing in the two
le flowers.  Depending on the type of purple the colored flower you are
g you may also get carotenoid amoenas as well.
 a rhetorically supposition... Is purple form anthocyanin only or a
ination with carotenoids as well?  An anthocyanin purple self flower could
 all four genes for carotenoid amoenas and not show it because it produces
arotenoid in the petals.
o just to be sure you understand this comment is correct....
 have both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.)"
ever, the two genes are independent of each other.  So you could get the
le form one parent and also get all plicatas from each parent (i.e. no self
) and end up with a purple plicata.
---Original Message-----
m: Betty Wilkerson &lt;autmirislvr@aol.com&gt;
t: Jan 9, 2011 12:27 PM
 iris-photos@yahoogroups.com, iris@hort.net
ject: [iris] Re: [iris-photos] HYB  seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
lt;&lt;If it was a recessive only, then it would have been 100%. The only
lination  that I can se so far is  two dominants, which gives the
&gt;&gt;
seem to have some problems (still) understanding the difference in breeding
h dominants & recessives.
sed on the words--dominant should mean that these genes will prevale over
ers.  If you cross two purple selfs, will you not get puple selfs?  You
e both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.)
cessive--does this not mean that the genes try to disappear?  Thus you must
e some on both sides of the cross to have any chance of getting the color
..?  You only get pink irises if pink exists on both sides of the cross.
 to rebloom, I've not seen any cross that comes close to producing 100%
loom in my climate.
tty W.   . . . . also posting this on iris talk.
---Original Message-----
m: Chuck Chapman &lt;irischapman@aim.com&gt;
 iris-photos &lt;iris-photos@yahoogroups.com&gt;
t: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:45 am
ject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
ost Echo and Negra Modelo are both Fall Cyclic rebloomers. So basically
thing crossed with them  will produce some rebloomers. That is because FC
looming is basically a  dominant trait.
would suggest plant vigour and low mature leaf count at bloom time are the
ondary characteristics  which enhance  rebloom and earlier rebloom on
dlings from a cross with a FC rebloomer. The more I look at this the more
makes sense. And my own crosses are backing this up.
had about 40 rebloom seedlings this year by crosses  using these
ncipals.
t of these were from FC  reblomers crossed  to  plants with high plant
our, fast increase, and low leaf count. Some crosses producing 50%
loomers.
did get  rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but with  result
king like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant  genes
ing involved in the rebloom complex.  If it was a recessive only, then it
ld have been 100%. The only explination  that I can se so far is  two
inants, which gives the 25%.  And one of these  dominants very well may be
 Facilitative Vernalization gene.
have tested  vigour hypothesei  with cross of Forever Blue X Paradigm Shift
he plant wit hhighest vigour and increase that I know) and did get  one
nt that rebloomed very late. Suggestive of Facilitative Vernalization, as
nt had been mature for a long time,
ile FC X FC  may increase number of reblooming seedlings, it is not
essarily so.  A cross of Lenora Pearl X October splendor (both FC
loomers here) had about  30 seedlings, So far, on 2 years of mature plants
06 cross)  there has been no rebloom.  I would suspect that crossing
her
these to a high vigour, low mature leaf count , non-rebloomer, that I
ld
 much better results
e Summer Rebloomers and Whenever Rebloomers have a recessive gene in their
plex, so will need a coresponding rebloom gene in the other plant. So a
rier for Whenever gene will not work when crossed to a Summer  rebloomer
 vice versa. So right carrier is needed for right plant.
mething like Rain Dance, is not a carrier of anything. But it is a vigorous
wer. So does have one of the secondary characteristics  that can be
pful.
rtainly keep  your data. I would be very interested in your results, as I'm
ll sorting out all the factors.
m starting to suspect that  all of the rebloomers have Vernalization
ilitative genes. More research and data is neded.
uck Chapman
----Original Message-----
m: loic tasquier &lt;tasquierloic@cs.com&gt;
 iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
t: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:59 pm
ject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
?
 Chuck, "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, Linda still hesitates to register

n if the texture is a bit thin, there aren't that many excellent
loomers
the market, and this one is very reliable!
know there is nothing certain to call an iris ' Rebloom Carrier ' but it is
t a personal way of selecting the irises i think have a potential to give
loomers if crossed with rebloomers:
in Dance'  does not rebloom but, crossed with 'Frost Echo', has given the
loomer 'Raindance Returns'.
nk' does not rebloom neither but, crossed with 'Negro Modelo', has given
 rebloomer 'Under My Thumb'.
hope that my B204D = Step Ahead x Forever  is a ' Rebloom Carrier ', having
rever Blue' as pol parent.
 finally, i also hope 'Spell' is  a ' Rebloom Carrier ' with so many
loomers in his parentage.
have spent months sorting out into two categories the irises that i thought
 potentioal, and the ones that didn't.
s just a handy tool that helps me sort my crosses like this:
 R : REB X REB
 C : REB X CARRIER
 N : REB X NON CARRIER
 might eventually make a more accurate selection by adding to the REB
teria E-REB for Early Rebloom and L-REB for Late Rebloom )
now have hundreds of seedlings that have at least one reblooming parent.
all them my 'Rebloom Carriers', and even if they are incompatible, I still
e that after several generations, i will finally get some rebloom.
---- Original Message -----
m: Chuck Chapman
 iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
t: Saturday, January 08, 2011 7:03 PM
ject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
m assumming "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, as I'm unable to find any
ormation on it.
t is the rebloom information on it?
 it is a Fall Cyclic rebloomer , then  you will get a number of good FC
loomers from cross with Autumn Jester, and some FC  rebloomer s from the
er crosses.
 it is a Summer Rebloomers, then no rebloomers from the other crosses
ess
 of them has the correct  gene set carried as recessive.
tic, what  information do you use to classify something as a "Rebloom
rier" ?
ll Cyclic and Vernalization facilitative  rebloomers seem to be a result of
ominant gene, thus you can't have carriers. Although some plants may have
se  rebloom genes but lack secondary genes to enable rebloom.
r "Summer  rebloomers" and "Whenever Rebloomers"  there are at least one

recessive rebloom genes, so you can have carriers, but two differerent
es.  And each seems to also have at least one set of dominant genes as
l. I suspect "Whenever" rebloomers to have a recessive gene plus two
inant genes.
uck Chapman
----Original Message-----
m: loic tasquier &lt;tasquierloic@cs.com&gt;
 iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
t: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:48 am
ject: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
Hello Linda,
ere are the crosses i have managed with your reblooming " Cloud Shadow" =
ortality X Celebration Song.
you can see, it is fertile both ways.
ey are not TB X TB crosses, i know, but this mail is, in fact, for the
ian Fans:
ill back-cross some of the best babies with their smaller parent.
 you are interested in back-crosses with "Cloud Shadows", i can make them
 send you the seeds, but that will take some time!

009cross
 X TB
Autumn Jester'
LOOMER
loud Shadow" REBLOOMER
seeds
09cross
X SDB
loud Shadow"
LOOMER
unk'
CE AGE
BLOOM-
RIER
seeds
10cross
 X TB
04D= Step Ahead x Forever Blue
BLOOM-
RIER
loud Shadow" REBLOOMER
eeds
10cross
 X TB
ain Dance'
BLOOM-
RIER
Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER
eeds
10cross
X MTB
loud Shadow"
LOOMER
pell'
LOOM-
RIER
seeds

 course, the minute i have pictures of the first babies, you will be first
know!
l then, we can dream...
C/c
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