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RE: Re: HYB: rebloom genetics
  • Subject: RE: Re: HYB: rebloom genetics
  • From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@familyszabo.com>
  • Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 00:38:56 -0500


The above link is an article about blacks. It does mention the infertility
of certain black females but says nothing about a short lifespan of certain

For those who have an interest in genetics, but really don't want to get
into reading about fish, here is a table from the article. I hope the
formatting holds enough to make this readable for everyone.

Male Parent		Female Parent			Offspring
Melano		Red					100% Multicolor
(melano genotype)
Melano		Multicolor (melano genotype)	50% Melano, 50% Multicolor
(melano genotype)
Melano		Melano				Melano females are infertile
Multicolor 		Blue					100%
Multicolor (50% melano genotype)
(melano genotype)	
Multicolor 		Multicolor (melano genotype)	25% Melano, 75%
Multicolor (67% melano genotype)
(melano genotype)	 

Melano here is the black. Note the use of the word genotype. This signifies
that the fish carries the proper gene to produce blacks, but it may not be
expressed in any way, or it could be expressed in a manner that allows for
some black coloration, maybe in certain ways, 


There are supposed to be some articles on blacks in Aquarium Digest
International, if you are familiar with the publication. I believe I have
nearly a complete set of this publication stored away somewhere, and will
need to look for them, if I have the time this weekend (I am also working on
an e-mail migration this weekend that needs to be done by Monday night, so
my time is limited). I have just received an e-mail address for Gene Lucas
(the one I had was no longer valid) though the person who gave it to me is
not sure if it is still valid either. I'll shoot off an e-mail to him
tomorrow (well, today) and see if it is valid, and what he may have to say
about the subject. I think it was FAMA that had a column by Gene as well,
though I do not have a complete collection of those magazines. I also have
gotten the e-mail address of a current IBC judge who has worked with blacks
for years.

Interesting side note: you may know or heard of Schmidt-Focke who was famous
for his discus. His true love, actually, was bettas.


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-iris@hort.net [mailto:owner-iris@hort.net] On Behalf Of Chuck
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 1:17 PM
To: iris@hort.net
Subject: RE: [iris] Re: HYB: rebloom genetics

Yes I was member of IBC in 70's and early 80's. It was IBC championship that
It was a tough job, as I had to ship my fish over border. Often drove to
border and shipped from USA. Had to sweet talk someone on show committee to
ship my fish on to next show. And after third show they had to be auctioned
shipping like that too hard on them. So I had to have a lot of show quality
fish to get through the fish season. Once I had 50 plus fish caught in a
strike. Showed up at destination over a month later. All but two of fish
survived the trip.
Gene Lucas was the expert on Betta genetics at time. I wrote some articles
well. May be in old journals from that era. The black show bettas had a
black gene, separate from the melanin gene. An enhanced melanin gene. Donbt
think it was located per say on X chromosome, but was linked or had a
gene. Ibm sure I have records that will help me on that, or some of Gene
Lucasbs old articles of that era. But if I go looking for them in barn,
Ibm likely to get lost in some of the old boxes for awhile. It has happened
But in terms of dominant genes, very few of them are 100% dominant, so a
second gene (or more in tets) can usually enhance gene effects. To really
at this properly would have to look at it at molecular level. That is not
likely to happen. No financial motivation or enough interest for scientists.
Although there are a lot of things going on in iris which should be of
interest to geneticists
One very interesting thing is the AVI and dominant removal of anthocyanin
gene"I" . You can get cells wit h AVI clusters in them, but no dissolved
anthocyanin. A certain combination of Ae and I genes. With a strong dosage
beta-carotene you get a dark amber colour. Examples of this is Ambour
and the standards of Ziggy. Sue would like to know what is going on there.
Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Szabo &lt;steve@familyszabo.com&gt;
To: iris@hort.net
Sent: Sat, Jan 15, 2011 3:26 am
Subject: RE: [iris] Re: HYB: rebloom genetics


So far, that is what I have gotten; female blacks appear to be sterile. This
would make it difficult for a male to have two of the black genes. I'd say
not impossible, but very difficult. It would seem that there is more than
one gene determining black in bettas (and probably other colors). I have had
reports that one will get a smallish number of blacks, a number of colors
with black mixed in, and a smallish number of other colors.

This is from a list where I need to take answers with a grain of salt, so to
speak. I've not yet gotten an answer from the list whose members I trust

Were you a member of the IBC during that time? Did you have an interest in
the wild bettas? I helped write the booklet the IBC eventually published
about the known wild species at that time.


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-iris@hort.net [mailto:owner-iris@hort.net] On Behalf Of Chuck
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 12:58 PM
To: iris@hort.net
Subject: [iris] Re: HYB: rebloom genetics

 Thanksfor the input Steve.

With Bettas? there is a seperate enhanced? gene for black (differerent then
normal melanin gene), which results in the "Black"? phenotype, seperate
regular melanin black gene.

The female black phenotype are? sterile. So you need to breed a black male
a? steel blue carrier to get black? children.
The ratio of? black offspring is such? to suggest? that?? males have a
dosage of this black gene to make them black, and that? the double dosage
males? die as eggs.? Not sure if this last fact (double dosage males dying
vitro) has ever been proven. But black phenotype is somehow sex gene linked.

I did breed Bettas for a number of years and was World champion in 1980.
other "fishy" awards as well. Haven't been seriously involved with aquarium
fish for some time.

There are a number of? homozygous fatal? genes in? animals, humans and in
plants. For humans, there is? a certain dwarf gene, that? reduces cartilage,
resulting in dwarfs in single dosage and in two dosages, is fatal in vitro.

In plants there are a number of differerent fatal genes, but all the
I could find were? rather esoteric, no good examples for presenting here.

Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Szabo &lt;steve@familyszabo.com&gt;
To: iris@hort.net
Sent: Thu, Jan 13, 2011 8:47 pm
Subject: RE: [iris] Re: HYB: rebloom genetics

Black fish. I'd need to look at the betta blacks for more information, but
other species who produce blacks tend to be shorter lived than their more
colorful siblings or cousins (black can and does breed true). Black fish
need a diet that is higher in protein than their more colorful relatives of
the same species. Depending on their natural diet, this can be hard to
supply, if you even know the need for it.

Black fish also tend to get cancer at a much higher frequency than one would
expect, based on knowledge of the species involved to produce the black;
sometimes one species sometimes two or more were originally used. For
example, one variety of black molly had three species involved to develop
the rich black that it has.

Black fish also have a tendency to a higher rate of fish tuberculosis.

Black fish also tend to need higher temperatures than their relatives to do
well, though many seem to lack the vigor of their cousins of the same
species to one degree or another.

So, there you have it, more than you wanted to know about black fish.

There is one important fact you need to keep in mind about genetics that I
learned from Neil Morgensen before he wandered off to tend that iris bed in
the sky. It is very difficult to take lessons learned in animal genetics and
apply them to iris genetics and it is the same going the other way. We did
have some long discussions about this on and offlist.


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-iris@hort.net [mailto:owner-iris@hort.net] On Behalf Of Linda
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 10:05 AM
To: iris@hort.net
Subject: [iris] Re: HYB: rebloom genetics

Thanks Chuck.

Can you think of any instances where a dominant gene in multiple doses
has some kind of amplifying effect?  In other words where it has the
opposite effect of being lethal?  I guess it wouldn't be considered a
true dominant in that case.

Any thoughts on the chemistry of what's going on when the cycle gene is
off?  Is any of that chemistry reversible, or could it be speeded up by
an extra gene set?  Ok, this is getting way off the track - sorry.

It's just frustrating trying to interpret results since rebloom here is
so dependent on year to year seasonal weather variations as well as
general climate, so that even "dominant" genes can't be seen half the
time (or more, or less).  Seems like a plant should have a hard time
figuring out how to grow at all with four sets of genes that don't agree
with each other.  ;-)

Interesting example about the fish - does the color gene cause death or
is it another gene linked with it?

&lt;I don't know of any situation of where a dominant gene is no longer
functioning when it is in multiple dosages, unless it is a lethal gene in
multiple dosages. Those exist, and the plant or animal just dies. One
of this is black Siamese fighting fish. Males with two dosages of black gene
Perhaps someone else knows of a situation where a dominant gene is
turned off
in multiple dosages, but I can't think of any off hand.&gt;

Linda Mann east TN USA zone 7
getting a little cabin fever crazy!

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