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Re: Re: Anthocyanin-sidetracked

Hey gang,
Okay, I wasn't much interested in the whole discussion of glaciatas, but the
comment about glaciata being a recessive of a recessive caught my interest. 
Can someone Punnett Square that for me?
I was trying to muddle all the plicata info in this post away from the
anthocyanin info and decided to refer back to some archive posts I had printed
out on the subject.  The only thing I'm sure of after that is that "blue" and
"white" can be lumped together genetically...at least as far as I'm interested
in blue and white per se.
BUT... I stumbled on a notation that caught my attention... as it may relate
more directly to personal goals.  In a post relating to anthocyanin dated Feb
08, 2003 Neil Morgensen stated that "The pigments involved in the blacks tend
to penetrate through the I factor."  This caught my attention because I have
noted that "green" irises sometimes come from "black" pedigrees, and have
wondered how that was possible.
If I understand the context correctly he's seperating two types of "white"
irises... recessive white and...well I'm unclear.
Somebody help me clear up the fog?  And if anyone has pictures of irises with
this "penetration" of dark pigments through the I factor, I would find them
very interesting.

--- On Fri, 7/25/08, irischapman@aim.com <irischapman@aim.com> wrote:

From: irischapman@aim.com <irischapman@aim.com>
Subject: [iris] Re: Anthocyanin Pigment Inheritence
To: iris@hort.net
Date: Friday, July 25, 2008, 10:46 PM

In response to queries re glaciatas.

There is basically three genetic lines to remove anthocyanin. That is
three sets of genes that have been used in iris.  To produce
anthocyanin, particularly delphinidin, there is about 22 biochemical
steps  in the production. Blocking any of these will stop the
production of anthocyanin.  These are called structural genes. In
addition you can have  control genes that prevent certain genes from
acting or by themselves  remove anathocyanin.

But lets focus on what we  know.

There is recessive reduction of anthocyain, This used to be called
recessive white and  the symbol used was "w"  and blues were
"W". But
this is incorrect as  yellows, pinks, and oranges etc  all  can exsist
with four sets of "w", ie w/w/w/w  genotypes.  One of this type
with a   flower with anthocyanin produces all anthocyanin flowers , as
long as no recessives were carried by the anthocyanin flower (brown.
ed. purple, blue etc)

There is the dominant reduction of anthocyanin , labelled "I" and we
can use this symbol. This is the commonest gene used to produce pinks,
yellows oranges, apricots etc.   A cross of one of these (having one
dosage of I )  to a flower having anthocyanin (ignoring all recessives
present) will  produce  half flowers with anthocuyanin and half without.

Not the use of the term "reduction", not removal. Multiple dosages of
will probaly  reduce anthocyanin even more.

Plicata genetics are complicated. Basically a plicata is a plant having
four plicata genes,  selecting from the three known alleles. Luminata,
glaciata and luminata.  A plicata can also have other genes such as I
or wwww, removing anthocyanin. Thus we get a plicata such as Laced
Cotton.  There is nothing  in definition of plicata genotype
indicating it has to have anthocyanin or any fixed pattern of
distribution. Known patterns include  classic plicata, luminata,
luminata-plicata, zonal and glaciata. We don't know what the pattern is
when  a glaciata has four luminata genes. It had been assumed for a
long time that luminata pttern had four luminata genes but  this is not
so.  Also any of these patterns can also have an I gene and we can get
a plicata pattern in cartenoid pigments with  a plicata distribution.
Now called a yellow plicata

The glaciata , which is four sets of  the plicata glaciata gene , also
has no anthocyanin. The removal of anthocyanin this way  produces an
exceptional clean flower.  But an exceptionally clean flower is not
necessarily a glaciata.

A glaciata  flower crossed with a wwww  will produce all offspring with
anthrocyanin. For example a white glaciata X  recessive white, produces
all blue offspring.

The glaciata is a recessive of a recessive (plicata) and has absolutely
no effect on pigment unless  paired up as one of four plicata genes.
And only shows glaciata  when in a set of four glaciata genes. So is of
no interest unless you are working plicatas. Of course working a line
of glaciatas to produce  exceptionally clean non anthocyanin flowers is
a possibility, except that glaciata plants are weak, have poor
branching and  usually not great flowers. But these are not all minor
problems. There are now stronger and better formed SDB and IB
glaciatas and eventually perhaps also with TB, but not so far. All TB
glaciatas I have grown here have quickly disappeared.

The proper test to see if a plant is a glaciata is to cross with a
plicata. All seedlings will be plicata if it is a glaciata. Of course
some of thes plicata could be glaciatas.

It actually it is even more complicated, but no further information for
this post, I sure it is confusing enough as is.

Chuck Chapman

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