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Re: Re: classifying as a Rebloomer
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: Re: classifying as a Rebloomer
  • From: Betty Wilkerson <101n@rewrite.hort.net>
  • Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2014 12:39:31 -0400

Chuck, I've not been on the coomputer for a couple of days so I'm jumping OVER
a lot of material, so this may have been covered already.    


To address
this is parts: 1-3.


1:1 cold hardy x cal rebloomer.  Will produce (some)
more CA rebloomers.  These in turn, being half cold hardy rebloomers CAN (but
won't always) produce cold hardy rebloomers when crossed with more cold hardy
rebloomers.  Are you saying that 


1:2 Cold hardy rebloom x cold hardy
rebloom.  Most people are not willing to devote the time or space to produce
the 1,000+ seedlings needed to produce an improved bloom.  (much less what it
takes to incorporate the recessive qualities.)  What about that white elepant
in the room??? The UGLY blooms?  Or the ugly colors?  


1:3 . . . what to do
when the pink, orange, & red bearded white do not grow well at all??  (in a
given area) Anyway, just how many "oncers" must one grow to determine what the
"right" plants might be?  There are literally thousands of cultivars I might
have to "trial" to determine the "strong" plants, which might not be strong in
other areas!  


In support of this (1-3) I will submit 'Returning Chameleon,'
which is one of the be best rebloomers I've introduced.  (Pink Sleigh x
Immortality)  Pink Sleigh promptly died right after I harvested the pod.
During the next winter.  Not hardy.  I spent years with this method.  Lots of
Schreiner things in early years.  


What cultivars would you suggest people
use?  


<<When  people start crossing strong cold climate rebloomers with
cold 
hardy plants  with good secondary factors, we will start making good
progress in rebloom breeding.>>




Betty Wilkerson
Zone 6 KY
autmirislvr@aol.com




-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Chapman
<db4f61431@rewrite.hort.net>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Fri, Oct 3, 2014
11:11 am
Subject: Re: [iris] Re: classifying as a Rebloomer


Could take just
one with right parents.

Having accurate information  won't discourage anyone.
But will prevent 
people from making futile crosses. The idea that  breeding
good strong 
colder  (harsher) rebloomers with coastal or  occasional
rebloomers is 
way to go has set back rebloom progress tremendously, as far as
I'm 
concerned. It is based on assumption that there is only one type of
rebloom gene. Also assumption that  all rebloom is recessive and have 
to
breed rebloomer to rebloomer. Both assumptions has  interfered with
progress. Most  people trying these  type of crosses  in  non-costal 
climates
end up giving up trying in frustration at lack of progress.

The rebloom genes
in  Coastal rebloomers  (and occasional/random 
rebloomers ) is completely
different then the genes in cold climate 
rebloomers. Nothing from these
"facilitative vernalization " 
rebloomers  genes will contribute positively to
cold climate rebloom. 
But do usually add tenderness, which is a problem to
breed out.

When  people start crossing strong cold climate rebloomers with
cold 
hardy plants  with good secondary factors, we will start making good
progress in rebloom breeding.

Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From:
Betty Wilkerson <101n@rewrite.hort.net>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Fri,
Oct 3, 2014 11:12 am
Subject: Re: [iris] Re: classifying as a Rebloomer

How
many generations will it take to produce a nice, modern formed red
(interject
non white, purple or yellow) of good (TB) height, good 
branching,
and good
pattern.


<<Based on what I know of genetics of rebloomers, I
can't see any
benefits. And possible  deficits from bring in tender  coastal
genes.>>

What
possible benefit can come from discouraging people from
breeding rebloomers?
Betty Wilkerson
Zone 6 KY
autmirislvr@aol.com
-----Original Message-----
From:
Chuck Chapman <db4f61431@rewrite.hort.net>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Fri,
Oct 3, 2014 9:02 am
Subject: Re: [iris]
Re: classifying as a Rebloomer


Any
examples of   rebloomers that can be
attributed to crosses with
coastal or
occasional rebloomers?

Based on what I
know of genetics of rebloomers, I
can't see any
benefits. And possible
deficits from bring in tender  coastal
genes.

Rare events based on misfiring
of bloom genes  in response to rare
growing conditions will not add anything
beneficial to gene pool
information.
It will not give any information to aid
breeding.

You need basic rebloom
genes plus good secondary characteristics,
which
include  plant hardiness in
many climates. Good performance in coastal
areas doesn't translate into
anything useful for harder climates..


Chuck
Chapman

-----Original
Message-----
From: Betty Wilkerson
<101n@rewrite.hort.net>
To: iris
<iris@hort.net>
Sent: Fri, Oct 3, 2014 9:38
am
Subject: Re: [iris] Re:
classifying as a Rebloomer

Maybe it depends on the
goal?


If your goal is to
collect irises that will
have a GOOD chance of
reblooming in your yard, then
it would be
advisable to
collect those that
rebloom, on a regular basis, in
YOUR area.  Learn
from
local gardeners. If
none exist, you can learn by
careful use of the
checklist.
If your goal is to
improve or diversify the
rebloom class, through
breeding,
perhaps you might
want to venture a bit
beyond the default rebloomers.
??  An
occasional
outcross to coastal
rebloomers of stellar growth habits
might be of
benefit.
I work specifically
with tall bearded irises and I'm a bit
too old
to begin
with inter class
crosses etc.






<<Once in 20, of no
value,
except to be
used as misleading
information from the "Spring
Gardens " of the
world. And
you can bet that they
will use it.>>





Betty Wilkerson
Zone 6 KY
autmirislvr@aol.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Chapman
<db4f61431@rewrite.hort.net>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Thu, Oct 2, 2014
8:16 pm
Subject: Re: [iris]
Re: classifying as a Rebloomer


For those people
who have  iris that rebloom
regularly for them, they
report. And then
information  is properly recorded.
And expectations
of   various  rebloom
in
various zones  can be relied on.
Once in 20
years in zone 4 is not
information
that can be counted on.

When
you check  the "rebloom" iris
offered by Spring
Garden and ilk,
you find that
they have used  rebloom
information from list ,
sometime
along the process.
When checking out some of
their listing I found
information such as one
rebloomer sold in Canada was
recorded as a one
time
event, of rebloom in
Australia.  No other rebloom
reported.  This
iris (along
with many other on
their list) will never rebloom
in
Canada. Some don't even
make it through
first year.   Many  people by
these collections,   both in
Canada and USA.
When they don't have
rebloom
they then can  give up on
rebloomers.  Several
such  comments
on "Iris
lovers" recently are very likely
from this sort of
practice.

So  a "once off"
rebloom from  one iris in one
location, when
reported
as a reblooming iris
can have unwanted effects.  Even
if it is  once
every three years , it gives
useful information.  Once in 20,
of no
value,
except to be used as misleading
information from the "Spring
Gardens " of the
world. And you can bet that
they will use it.

Chuck Chapman
-----Original
Message-----
From: Betty
Wilkerson <101n@rewrite.hort.net>
To:
iris
<iris@hort.net>
Sent: Thu, Oct 2,
2014 4:46 pm
Subject: Re: [iris] Re:
classifying as a Rebloomer

May be a
matter of neuances, but . . . just
because something doesn't
rebloom
in your
yard doesn't mean they aren't
rebloomers.   My opinion.
'Forever
Blue'
doesn't rebloom here, but I don't
question that it is a rebloomer
. . .
for
you and others.



<<A once off
event  of rebloom is exciting, and
worth
noting , but
doesn't make that plant
a rebloomer for  me.  I have over
the
years
have had a good number of  oncers
put up an out of season or even
twice
a year bloom. these things can and do
happen. <<<<


Doesn't make it a
rebloomer  as far as I'm concerned.>>
'Victoria Falls' did fall bloom for me
in Alvaton, in the 90's.  It grew over
40 inches tall and I quit
counting at
18 buds.  Don't think it has done this
since.  It's my opinion that
it's been
proven to be a plus when breeding
rebloomers.  It contributed height,
branching and improved flower form.  Maybe
there was another path?
Maybe
even
a better path, but nothing else has proven
to measure up.


Betty
Wilkerson
Zone 6 KY
autmirislvr@aol.com
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Chuck
Chapman <db4f61431@rewrite.hort.net>
To: iris
<iris@hort.net>
Sent: Thu,
Oct
2, 2014 7:16 am
Subject: [iris] Re:
classifying
as a Rebloomer


Bloom
triggers for plants are complicated, and
you can
occasionally get
misfires. A
number of years ago in our area some
apple trees
bloomed
in fall. But a once
off occurrence. Rebloom yes, but it
doesn't make
these apple trees
rebloomers.
Right now I have  Victoria Falls in
bloom, and
on a 50" stalk,
standing up
straight and tall. But the only time it
has fall
bloomed in
over
20 years of
growing it. I'm not going to send in a
rebloom
report
on it as it
is a once
off event. About 4 years ago I had a fall
bloom
on a clump of Best
Bet. Again
a  once off event as it also has done
this
once
in about 20 years.
I'm not
going to list them as rebloomers
for me in my
zone
4 garden. And
having them
listed as  zone 4
rebloomers would be
inaccurate and
deceptive.
Not a
behaviour you can
rely on.

On the other hand,
my SDB Juiced
Up is
reblooming
now on several
clumps. I first had rebloom on
Juiced Up about
2006, after
initial
bloom in 1998. It was interesting, but
even if it had a
rebloom
parent,
that still didn't make it a rebloomer. But in
the past  four
years it
has rebloomed  three times. I'll now report it as a
rebloomer for my
climate
zone.

A once off event  of rebloom is exciting, and
worth noting ,
but
doesn't make that plant a rebloomer for  me.  I have over
the years
have
had a
good number of  oncers put up an out of season or even
twice
a
year
bloom.
these things can and do happen. Doesn't make it a
rebloomer  as
far as
I'm
concerned.

Chuck Chapman
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