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Re: self heading Philodendron ID

  • Subject: Re: self heading Philodendron ID
  • From: brian lee <lbmkjm@yahoo.com>
  • Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 08:05:06 -0800 (PST)

Dear Eric,

Aloha.  Offline, Julius forwarded me a scan from a
fellow aroider of Simon Mayo's discussion of
Philodendron eichleri.

Mayo seems to rely heavily on leaf morphology in
sinking Philodendron eichleri into synonomy.  He had
reservations and he does acknowledge the need for more
complete collection series.  There are many questions
I have that cannot be resolved until the description
is studied and herbaria sheets compared.  There is a
big need for additional fieldwork and complete fertile
collections with stems collected or photographed with
ecological data, etc.

The biggest question I have is the true identity of
the plant most people know as Philodendron eichleri.  
That plant has the look of hybrid origin...but the
taxon was described from a wild population...which
doesn't eliminate the possibility of hybrid parentage.
 Mayo notes that a later collection from the type
location had spathes with a crimson interior...which
is interesting.   He considered that to be
polymorphism within the concept of Philodendron
undulatum and cited a cultivated collection from
Tucuman, Argentina with purple spathes as an example
of this polymorphic character.  I still have big
questions.  I would like to see if there are two
sympatric taxa from the Carandai location.  

Philodendron undulatum and the plant known widely as
Philodendron eichleri in cultivation are poles apart. 
So, there is another question...are these plants
correctly identified?  I have not seen any plants
close to Philodendron undulatum that have been
identified as Philodendron eichleri...has anyone else?

I have never given Philodendron eichleri much thought
until this present discussion...maybe Eduardo
Gonsalves and Simon Mayo need to clarify these
questions with us....I have no access to the
description nor the specimens.

Aloha,

Leland


--- brian lee <lbmkjm@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dear Eric,
> 
> Aloha.  I agree with Julius on all counts.
> 
> Philodendron undulatum is very distinctive with
> numerous, persistent, needle-like , half inch to
> three
> quarter inch, intravaginal squamules on the stem. 
> It
> is very different from the plant I know as P.
> eichleri.
> 
> Literature on Philodendron eichleri is as follows:  
> 
> P. eicheri in Bot. Jahrb. 26 : 556 (1899); Krause in
> Engler, Das Pflanzenreich 60 (IV. 23Db): 133 (1913).
> Types: Brazil, Minas Gerais state, Carandai, cult.
> Brazil, 15 Nov. 1887 at Quinta da Boa Vista, Rio de
> Janeiro as no. 67, Glaziou 16503 (infl.,B!
> syn.;sterile, P! isosyn.), Glaziou 17332, (sterile,
> B
> syn. not seen; C! K! P! isosyn.).  
>  
> If someone in virtual world has access to the
> original
> description in Das Pflanzenreich to scan and
> share...all of us can compare our plants and decide
> what that taxon / hybrid is, within the confines of
> the original intent.  I have seen plants of
> Philodendron labeled as eichleri...it is a massive
> plant that has affinities to Philodendron speciosum.
> 
> The spathes are green with pink edges, and the stem
> has light colored petiole scars...off hand I could
> not
> tell you the nature of the intravaginal
> squamules...but I can check in the next few
> days....there is a large clump about a mile from me.
> 
> However, until I can compare the original
> description
> and translate the German...it is impossible for me
> to
> tell why Simon Mayo considered this a synonym of
> Philodendron undulatum....perhaps what we consider
> Philodendron eichleri is faulty or perhaps the
> original description is vague and the type specimens
> compare favorably with P. undulatum.  Questions.
> 
> Aloha,
> 
> Leland
> --- ju-bo@msn.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----------------------------------------
> > > Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:07:46 -0800
> > > From: leu242@yahoo.com
> > > To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] self heading Philodendron
> > ID
> >  
> > Dear Eric,
> > 
> > Thanks, please keep us informed as to any cold
> > damage.
> > First off, Abrimaal`s opinion is that this large
> > plant is either P. xanadu or P. pinnatifidium, but
> > it is deff. not either of these two species---P.
> > xanadu is a substantially smaller plant with MANY
> > differences, and P. pinnatifidium is NOT a
> > Meconostigma and is a tropical species with many
> > differences and so would not survive the cold
> where
> > this plant is growing.
> > (When in doubt, read the instructions! :--)!!
> > In the most recent key to the plants in the
> > Philodendron subgenus Meconostigma,  in Aroideana
> > Vol. 25 of 2002, Dr. Eduardo Goncalves lists 19
> > ''good'' species in this subgenus, and P.
> eichlerii
> > is not listed as one of them.   I have seen a
> > photograph of a plant that is pretty much a
> perfect
> > match for Eric`s pic. in an old Exotica labeled as
> > P. eichlerii, next to it or at least on the same
> > page was P. X evansii.
> > I will continue to ask around, but I am pretty
> > certain that P. eichlerii is one of the old
> hybrids.
> >  
> > I am familiar w/ P. undulatum, and this photo of
> > Eric`s is certainly NOT P. undulatum, which is one
> > of the smaller and compact-growing species of
> > Meconostigma, and has very distinctive, long and
> > thorn-like squamules surrounding the base of each
> > petiole, persisting on the bare rhizome.  It is
> the
> > only Meconostigma sp. with these thorn-like
> > squamules.
> > 
> > The Best,
> > 
> > Good Growing,
> > 
> > Julius
> > 
> >  We only got down to 31F for an hour or so, so I
> > doubt
> > > the plants were bothered at all. Judging from
> the
> > size
> > > of the clump and age of the neighborhood they
> were
> > > probably planted early to mid 1970's. They would
> > have
> > > survived the 3 big freezes in the 1980s, esp.
> > 12/89
> > > when there were 2 nights at 19-20F here. They
> > probably
> > > froze to the ground as a majority of the P.
> > > bipinnatifidum and P. x evansii did at that
> time.
> > > 
> > > I thought P. eichleri was a species not a
> hybrid.
> > Kew
> > > lists it as a synonum for P. undulatum.
> > > 
> > > Eric
> > > Orlando,FL z9b/10a
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- ju-bo@msn.com wrote:
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ----------------------------------------
> > > > > Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 06:45:31 -0800
> > > > > From: leu242@yahoo.com
> > > > > To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] self heading
> > Philodendron
> > > > ID
> > > >  
> > > > Dear Eric,
> > > > 
> > > > After tossing your photo around, some buddys
> and
> > I
> > > > have come to the conclusion that the plants in
> > > > question are P.X "Eichelrii" (pronounced
> > Eck-ler-ii)
> > > > which together with P. X "Evansii" are a
> couple
> > of
> > > > the OLD Meconostigma (self-heading) hybrids
> made
> > > > back in the 50`s (?) and 60`s.    Plants with
> > this
> > > > name are clearly pictured in old Exoticas.  It
> > must
> > > > have great resistance to cold, and it would be
> > > > greatly appreciated if you could re-visit
> these
> > > > plants now that the severe cold snap has
> passed
> > and
> > > > give us a report on how they fared.
> > > > 
> > > > The Best,
> > > > 
> > > > Julius
> > > > 
> > > >  
> > > > > Its definitely not P. xanadu. These plants
> are
> > 5-6
> > > > ft.
> > > > > tall. The leaves are 2-3 ft. long.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Eric
> > > > > Orlando, FL
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Xanadu gone wild !   No way is that Xanadu.
> I
> > > > think it
> > > > > resembles somewhat P. x evansii, an invalid
> > name
> > > > that
> > > > > might better be written P. 'Evansii'.  This
> is
> > > > much
> > > > > seen in older Miami gardens, but the one in
> > the
> 
=== message truncated ===



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