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Re: Sauromatum x Pinellia hybrid.... and others...

Hi Tony and all,

I guess the pics of the leaves, petioles and tuber are not at all
convincing to me, but I could be the only one.  I have at least a
half-dozen so-called 'Indian Giant' growing in my yard and pots (originally
from you) with a second petiole from the same growth point (the original
petiole is splitting at the base as you see in Dracontium) already and we
are very early in the growing season here in Pittsburgh.  Given that this
is "normal" (for me anyway) then couldn't you have a simple mutation that
could take you from 2-3 petioles to 4-5 (no mutation is simple to
understand in terms of genotype/phenotype of course)?  The flower pics make
it look very ill-formed so hard to tell for me, but you have seen it
up-close so have a better idea.  I'm guessing you already preserved the
flower so that it could be examined by someone like Wilbert?  Have you sent
plant material to someone for genetic testing, which is likely the only way
to get a solid answer to your question?  Was the flower sterile or could
you back-cross?  It is an interesting question you pose and I wish you all
the luck in figuring it out with absolute certainty.

Gibsonia, PA

Original Message:
From: Tony Avent tony@plantdelights.com
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 16:28:23 -0400
To: aroid-l@www.gizmoworks.com
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Sauromatum x Pinellia hybrid.... and others...


The petiole pattern on Saurmatum opens up yet another can of worms...or
would the term maggots be more appropriate.  The difference between the
petioles of Sauromatum venosum 'Indian Giant' and typical Sauromatum venosum
is the size and amount of spots.  S. 'Indian Giant' has large spots, but the
are sparse.  The typical S. venuosum, therefore, has much smaller spots and
more of them.  We planted the two parents side by side and gathered op seed,
of which we have now flowered nearly 1000 plants.  The petioles patterns are
a total mix, with even showing no spots. If the S. 'Indian Giant' was a
tetraploid, the crosses back to the typical form should be probably sterile
triploids, which does not seem to be the case.

On our purported hybrid, the petiole spots are closer to typical S. venosum,
which is what I would anticipate with a cross of Pinellia (no spots) and
Sauromatum (spots).  I would consider the multiple shoots from the same corm
and the lack of a fully developed flower as the most compelling evidence of
intergeneric hybridization.  You should be able to page back and forth to
see the flower image on the gallery, but if not, go to

Tony Avent
Plant Delights Nursery @
Juniper Level Botanic Garden
9241 Sauls Road
Raleigh, North Carolina  27603  USA
Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F
Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F
USDA Hardiness Zone 7b
email tony@plantdelights.com
website  http://www.plantdelights.com
phone 919 772-4794
fax  919 772-4752
"I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three
times" - Avent

-----Original Message-----
From: aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com
[mailto:aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of James Waddick
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 3:04 PM
To: Discussion of aroids
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Sauromatum x Pinellia hybrid.... and others...

>  I've posted images of the flower this spring, and the plant as it 
>currently grows in comparison with both putative parents, Sauromatum 
>venosum and Pinellia pedatisecta.

Dear Tony
	This is a fascinating topic. As you probably know both Sauromatum
venosum (aka Typhonium) has a chromosome number of 2N= 26. 
This is the same for Pinellia pedatisecta and some (but not all ) others in
this genus ie 2N = 26

	I realize that chromosome nos. of themselves has little meaning, but
suggests a likelier road to hybridization.

	In your differentiation of these two species you did not mention
what seems the easiest and most consistent feature- petiole pattern. In
Sauromatum the petiole is more or less heavily brown spotted and blotched,
while Pinellia pedatisecta has no spots and is uniformly green.  I have a
hard time keeping Sauromatum alive outdoors in the ground, but somehow
tubers pop up in pots as do Pinellia. The petiole pattern is always a dead
give away even on small plants.

	I didn't find your pix of the hybrid flower, but I'll search some
more unless you have a handy url.

	In this same discussion, the cv "Indian Giant' is brought to mind.
This is a much larger form of S. venosum. Could it be a tetraploid? Has
anyone compared chromosome numbers to the typical, smaller form? And is
this, by the way, any more or less hardier than the typical form?

	And even a bit father afield are the 2 species Dracunculus vulgaris
and Helicodiceros m. The former is found in the western Mediterranean
islands and has a 2N= 28. The latter is found in the Eastern Medterranean
with 2n = 56. Apparently there's no place where both occur in nature.

	Is Helicodiceros derived from a tetraploid ancestor of Dracunculus
vulgaris or do they both share a diploid, and at one time more wide spread,
ancestor?  More importantly can they be hybridized to produce a triploid F1?

	Growing these species in close proximity as you do encourages bee
produced hybrids to form. I really enjoy your exploring this here. More as I
give it more thought.

		Best		Jim W.

Dr. James W. Waddick
8871 NW Brostrom Rd.
Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711
Ph.    816-746-1949
Zone 5 Record low -23F
	Summer 100F +

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