Re: Invasive aroids (was Re: Synandrospadix breeding)
- Subject: Re: Invasive aroids (was Re: Synandrospadix breeding)
- From: J* H* <j*@yahoo.com>
- Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 11:37:20 +0000 (UTC)
It should be realized that the qualities that make a plant desirable by gardeners are the same qualities that make it potentially invasive. As an example, I asked a land steward why is it that people plant invasive Oriental bittersweet when there is a native American bittersweet? The reply was that gardeners prefer the Oriental species because it grows faster and produces more fruits. In other words, they prefer it because it is invasive.
On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 8:55 PM, aroid-l-request@gizmoworks.com<aroid-l-request@gizmoworks.com> wrote:Send Aroid-L mailing list submissions toaroid-l@gizmoworks.comTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visitor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' toaroid-l-request@gizmoworks.comYou can reach the person managing the list ataroid-l-owner@gizmoworks.comWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specificthan "Re: Contents of Aroid-L digest..."Today's Topics:1. Re: Synandrospadix breeding (Tom Croat)----------------------------------------------------------------------Message: 1Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 00:27:40 +0000From: Tom Croat <T*@mobot.org>To: Discussion of aroids <aroid-l@gizmoworks.com>Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Synandrospadix breedingMessage-ID:<PH0PR15MB5142AAB31E2B1AE4DBA782EA9C26A@PH0PR15MB5142.namprd15.prod.outlook.com" href="mailto:PH0PR15MB5142AAB31E2B1AE4DBA782EA9C26A@PH0PR15MB5142.namprd15.prod.outlook.com">PH0PR15MB5142AAB31E2B1AE4DBA782EA9C26A@PH0PR15MB5142.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"Syngonium angustatum and even S. podophyllum are considered noxious weeds in Australia. Rhaphidophora aurea has invaded tropical forests all over the world. At Lae in New Guinea I found a half dozen new world genera in the forest in what appeared to be a natural habitat.Tom CroatFrom: Aroid-L <aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com> On Behalf Of HannonSent: Sunday, June 25, 2023 2:56 PMTo: Discussion of aroids <aroid-l@gizmoworks.com>Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Synandrospadix breedingJust to circle back, I wonder if members have any observations on weedy aroids? Are there any truly invasive ones? I'm thinking of Arum italicum, Pinellia, Pistia, other aquatics?DylanThat men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history. --Aldous HuxleyOn Sat, 24 Jun 2023 at 21:13, a sunjian <a*@gmail.com<mailto:asjbiotek@gmail.com>> wrote:" it is apparent that so-called weeds and most "invasives" hold no ground where native vegetation is intact. Unless they can exploit a new trail or road or other disturbance, including too frequent fires, "invasive" plants tend to remain in disturbed areas."Yep, agreed. Many invasive species are disturbance specialists, and do flourish where there is human disturbance.However, there are some invasives that have no problems dominating the native species even in relatively undisturbed situations, whether it's because they left behind their diseases and predators in their origin location and are thus pretty fit in the new location, or simply because they really are darn competitive.Examples might include cogon grass (Imperata cylindrica, which can overwhelm native vegetation fairly easily in the southeast even in pristine areas), as well as some of the winter annual grasses (medusahead or Taeniatherum caput-medusae for example) that are currently decimating much of the Great Basin (though these use a feedback loop mechanism to create their own fire disturbance). In the past, exotic annual grasses from Eurasia overwhelmed the native bunchgrasses over such a large area that human disturbance was likely only a minor component of their eventual success.We can probably take this off-group as it is forking the thread, and going beyond aroid topics. Feel free to email me directly!On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 6:12?PM Hannon <o*@gmail.com<mailto:othonna@gmail.com>> wrote:Regarding invasive species, a factor often neglected in reasoning through the problem is human disturbance. Having performed many botanical surveys in CA, it is apparent that so-called weeds and most "invasives" hold no ground where native vegetation is intact. Unless they can exploit a new trail or road or other disturbance, including too frequent fires, "invasive" plants tend to remain in disturbed areas. In some cases this is a good thing-- think of grazing areas stripped of shrub cover and now covered by non-native grasses. Without that cover there would be massive erosion in many parts of CA for example."Protecting endangered plants in situ is always the better solution, as it is part of the local ecology.."Agreed but this is comparing apples to oranges. Any plant in cultivation is not "protected" in any ecological or biological sense-- no pollinators, genetic diversity, seedling recruitment, etc. Plants brought under our care, for a range of reasons and for a very long time, are on a different (and mostly fatal) trajectory.Governments managing wild areas is completely different from governments controlling ex situ diversity. It seems reasonable to me that there should be controls to limit the damage of diseases, pests and sometimes the plants themselves. But no amount of human activity-- regulated or not-- can "save" rare species.DylanThat men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history. --Aldous HuxleyOn Fri, 23 Jun 2023 at 18:53, a sunjian <a*@gmail.com<mailto:asjbiotek@gmail.com>> wrote:Most invasive plants in the US were either intentionally brought to the US by authorized governmentsMany of the worst invasives that are causing havoc were brought in via the horticultural trade or for forage.." Again, my vote is return to 2.8 million year old idea that plants belong to humankind, not governments."Those governments represent the people of those countries, and like the land and water and other resources of those countries, the local people should have better collective say in the area than some foreign obsessive collector or greedy seller of plants.Protecting endangered plants in situ is always the better solution, as it is part of the local ecology..When this is not possible, or as a backup, I am all for the regulated flow of plants internationally (after careful study of its potential for harm), especially if endangered species can be saved.And obviously, pushing for completely unregulated international movement of plants and animals is just...well, stupid.On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 6:00?PM Tony Avent <T*@plantdelights.com<mailto:Tony@plantdelights.com>> wrote:Appreciate the comments, but I?ll have to respectfully disagree.Most invasive plants in the US were either intentionally brought to the US by authorized governments (think kudzu, multiflora rose, lespedeza, etc. or accidentally, in shipments of other non-plant items. Furthermore, most of these plants would not be classified invasive by non-native humans, if they were growing in functional natural ecosystems, but it?s intellectually simpler to just blame the ?bad? plants. I?m further fascinated that some people have such a zealous hangup about invasive ornamental plants, when other non-native species like Homo sapiens, honeybees, and non-native earthworms cause ecological change on the order of 1000x that of all ?invasive plants? combined. Then of course, there are the non-native edible plants to feed the non-native humans, both of which take up massively more area than all of the non-native ornamental plants every introduced. Some people seem determined to put everything in a ?good? or ?bad? bucket, based on what are often myopic views of the world.Then of course, there is the entire concept of what is native. This fascinatingly need for putting everything into boxes, usually fails to realize that ?native? is not a place in location, but is instead a place in time. Still, people call certain races of people in North American, native Americans. Unfortunately, this misnomer simply reflects a humorous artificial distinction based on whether the Homo sapiens came to North America across the Pacific Ocean or the Atlantic Ocean, separated by a period of ~15,000 years.In my humble opinion, giving governments, especially unfunctional bureaucracies, more control over what plants they share is exactly the current problem. Humans would mostly likely not exist today without the free flow of plant germplasm, which has been shared and moved since the beginnings of the genus Homo circa 2.8 million year ago. It?s fascinating that some people have an insatiable need for the world to be static and long for a return to a magical Camelotian place and time.Again, my vote is return to 2.8 million year old idea that plants belong to humankind, not governments.Tony AventProprietort*@plantdelights.com<mailto:tony@plantdelights.com>Juniper Level Botanic Garden<http://www.juniperlevelbotanicgarden.org/> and Plant Delights Nursery<http://www.plantdelights.com/>Ph 919.772.4794/fx 919.772.47529241 Sauls Road, Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USAUSDA Zone 7b/Winter 0-5 F/Summer 95-105F"Preserving, Studying, Propagating, and Sharing the World?s Flora?[cid:image001.png@01D9A79B.1945BAF0]Since 1988, Plant Delights Nursery is THE Source for unique, rare and native perennial plants.From: Aroid-L <aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com<mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com>> On Behalf Of a sunjianSent: Friday, June 23, 2023 9:12 AMTo: Discussion of aroids <aroid-l@gizmoworks.com<mailto:aroid-l@gizmoworks.com>>Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Synandrospadix breedingI am all for being able to move plants after careful consideration and approval from the host country, but unauthorized and unstudied movement of living plant material between areas can result in ecological disasters. Most of the invasive problems we have today are because of such movements in the past.On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:45?AM Tony Avent <T*@plantdelights.com<mailto:Tony@plantdelights.com>> wrote:Sharing of rare plants used to be acceptable, even encouraged, back when plant genetics were considered to belong to humankind. Sadly, now, plants are viewed as belonging to the current country of origin. This greed-based, short-sighted view is leading to far more plants going extinct. One of many such stories is when the late Alan Galloway found a new amorphophallus species in Central Thailand. Because he didn?t have official permission from the Thailand government to collect a sample, he subsequently had to publish it without a specific location. When he revisited the site five years later, the entire small mountain on which it grew had been destroyed for gravel production. We all must work to reverse this said trend and return to a time when plant genetics belonged to everyone.Tony AventProprietort*@plantdelights.com<mailto:tony@plantdelights.com>Juniper Level Botanic Garden<http://www.juniperlevelbotanicgarden.org/> and Plant Delights Nursery<http://www.plantdelights.com/>Ph 919.772.4794/fx 919.772.47529241 Sauls Road, Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USAUSDA Zone 7b/Winter 0-5 F/Summer 95-105F"Preserving, Studying, Propagating, and Sharing the World?s Flora?[cid:image002.png@01D9A79B.1945BAF0]Since 1988, Plant Delights Nursery is THE Source for unique, rare and native perennial plants.From: Aroid-L <aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com<mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com>> On Behalf Of Steve MarakSent: Thursday, June 22, 2023 8:13 PMTo: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com<mailto:aroid-l@gizmoworks.com>Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Synandrospadix breedingSame here, I'll share pollen, or accept pollen, of whatever species I have. My Synandrospadix has its second inflorescence up, and based on past experience there will be a few more this summer.SteveOn 6/22/2023 3:16 PM, Jessica Holbrook wrote:Delayed response on this thread here, my apologies.I would love to be involved in these types of collaborations when I have plants of age to be putting out inflos; right now I am only there with Alocasias.If you?re interested &/or looking for additional participants in these kinds of endeavors please keep me in mind if you like?I am also more than happy to try to acquire specific plants to participate! Certainly never a burden to expand the collection! ?Thanks all,:) JessOn Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 12:22 D. Christopher Rogers <b*@gmail.com<mailto:branchiopod@gmail.com>> wrote:I no longer have the plant, or I would offer mine up for the experiment. But I do think that those of you who have this species, should consider sending each other offsets, so that all can start propagating and sharing the seeds. The IAS membership used to do this sort of thing all the time decades ago. It was important to the membership to get these plants out into the hobby, especially as so many species were disappearing from the wild. Julius Boos, Steve Lucas, Tom Croat, Dewey Fisk, and so many others used to share material just to get rare species out into the hobby. This makes so many hard to find species more generally available, builds networks of breeders, develops relationships, and conserves the species.Happy days,ChristopherOn Fri, 2 Jun 2023 at 11:12, Steve Marak <samarak@gizmoworks.com<mailto:samarak@gizmoworks.com>> wrote:Christopher,Love to!Wilbert told me many years ago that only young Synandrospadix will make offsets and, as usual, it seems he's right. I got one offset from my plant many years ago (that's the one I tried outdoors), and none since.But I'd be happy to collect pollen from mine and send it to to others.SteveOn 6/2/2023 11:03 AM, D. Christopher Rogers wrote:Anyone want to share clones and try to get some genetic diversity into the hobby populations?ChristopherOn Fri, 2 Jun 2023 at 11:00, Don Martinson <l*@wi.rr.com<mailto:llmen@wi.rr.com>> wrote:I?ve tried this as well, Steve. That?s why I ask. Thanks.Don> On Jun 2, 2023, at 10:52 AM, Steve Marak <samarak@gizmoworks.com<mailto:samarak@gizmoworks.com>> wrote:>> Don, for what it's worth I've tried to self my single clone several times and never gotten any seed.>> Steve>_______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@gizmoworks.com<mailto:Aroid-L@gizmoworks.com>--D. Christopher Rogers((,///////////=======<785.864.1714Associate Research ProfessorKansas Biological SurveyThe University of Kansas, Higuchi Hall2101 Constant Avenue, Lawrence, KS 66047-3759 USA<https://www.google.com/maps/search/2101+Constant+Avenue,+Lawrence,+KS%0D%0A++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++66047-3759+USA?entry=gmail&source=g>ORCID Number: 0000-0003-3335-7287Affiliate, Invertebrate Zoology, Biodiversity Institute, The University of KansasThe Crustacean SocietyAssociate Editor, Journal of Crustacean BiologySouthwest Association of Freshwater Invertebrate TaxonomistsSAFIT.ORG<http://safit.org/>HC SVNT CRVSTACEA_______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@gizmoworks.com<mailto:Aroid-L@gizmoworks.com>_______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@gizmoworks.com<mailto:Aroid-L@gizmoworks.com>--D. Christopher Rogers((,///////////=======<785.864.1714Associate Research ProfessorKansas Biological SurveyThe University of Kansas, Higuchi Hall2101 Constant Avenue, Lawrence, KS 66047-3759 USA<https://www.google.com/maps/search/2101+Constant+Avenue,+Lawrence,+KS+66047-3759+USA?entry=gmail&source=g>ORCID Number: 0000-0003-3335-7287Affiliate, Invertebrate Zoology, Biodiversity Institute, The University of KansasThe Crustacean SocietyAssociate Editor, Journal of Crustacean BiologySouthwest Association of Freshwater Invertebrate TaxonomistsSAFIT.ORG<http://safit.org/>HC SVNT CRVSTACEA_______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@gizmoworks.com<mailto:Aroid-L@gizmoworks.com>_______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@gizmoworks.com<mailto:Aroid-L@gizmoworks.com>_______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@gizmoworks.com<mailto:Aroid-L@gizmoworks.com>_______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@gizmoworks.com<mailto:Aroid-L@gizmoworks.com>_______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@gizmoworks.com<mailto:Aroid-L@gizmoworks.com>_______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@gizmoworks.com<mailto:Aroid-L@gizmoworks.com>_______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@gizmoworks.com<mailto:Aroid-L@gizmoworks.com>-------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: <https://gizmoworks.com/cgi-bin/mailman/private/aroid-l/attachments/20230626/bb96dac1/attachment.htm>-------------- next part --------------A non-text attachment was scrubbed...Name: image001.pngType: image/pngSize: 63488 bytesDesc: image001.pngURL: <https://gizmoworks.com/cgi-bin/mailman/private/aroid-l/attachments/20230626/bb96dac1/attachment.png>-------------- next part --------------A non-text attachment was scrubbed...Name: image002.pngType: image/pngSize: 63542 bytesDesc: image002.png------------------------------Subject: Digest Footer_______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@gizmoworks.com------------------------------End of Aroid-L Digest, Vol 208, Issue 103*****************************************
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