Re: Re: Politics/Bonnie

I absolutely loved that quote...must print it. For me, the deafening
silence of the end of reasoned and articulate dialogue would be the end
of the world...there is nothing I love better than the challenge of a
worthy opponent in a good Socratic style argument!



Melody, IA (Z 5/4)

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious."    
--Albert Einstein

 --- On Tue 06/29,  < gardenqueen@academicplanet.com > wrote:
From:  [mailto: gardenqueen@academicplanet.com]
To: gardenchat@hort.net
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:35:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: [CHAT] Politics/Bonnie

My my - good one lady.<br><br>Pam Evans<br>Kemp, TX<br>zone 8A<br>-----
Original Message -----<br>From: cathy carpenter<br>Sent: 6/29/2004
12:00:46 PM<br>To: gardenchat@hort.net<br>Subject: Re: [CHAT]
Politics/Bonnie<br><br>> Ok, I guess I'm on a quote kick, but this seems
apropos:<br>> <br>> We live in terror because persuasion is no longer
possible...because we <br>> live in a world of abstractions, or bureaus
and machines, or absolute <br>> ideas and crude messianism. We suffocate
among people who think they <br>> are absolutely right, whether in their
machines or in their ideas. And <br>> for all who can live only in an
atmosphere of human dialogue and <br>> sociability, this silence is the
end of the world.<br>> --Albert Camus<br>> <br>> Cathy<br>> On Monday,
June 28, 2004, at 11:19 PM, David Franzman wrote:<br>> <br>> > Bonnie,
it's disturbing! Politics is the give and take of ideas not <br>> >
dogma.<br>> > Certainly my views have shifted after hearing a well
presented case <br>> > and as I<br>> > age my beliefs blend and mellow.
Frankly, it's the extremes that <br>> > irritate<br>> > me on both
sides. Whoever doesn't agree with them are unthinking, <br>> >
godless<br>> > and unAmerican. I hate that!<br>> ><br>> > I believe the
media has much to do with that. Instead of thoughtful<br>> > discussion
they have to get into these loud, bashing arguments calling <br>> >
each<br>> > other names. Just part of the dumbing down of America. "What
should <br>> > we<br>> > watch tonight honey the Worlds Wrestling
Federation or the Riley <br>> > Report?"<br>> > Pretty pathetic!<br>>
><br>> > One last thing since I'm on a roll: If 40% are rock solid on
one side <br>> > or<br>> > the other and only 6% are undecided and with
only 50% of those <br>> > elegable to<br>> > vote actually doing so then
roughly 26% of the electorate dictate to <br>> > the<br>> > rest of the
country the direction we will follow for at least the next <br>> >
four<br>> > years. NOW THAT IS SCARY! My God people do

your civic duty, study the<br>> > issues and vote.<br>> ><br>> > David
Franzman<br>> > A Touch of the Tropics<br>> >
www.atouchofthetropics.net<br>> > ----- Original Message -----<br>> >
From: "Bonnie Holmes" <holmesbm@usit.net><br>> > To:
<gardenchat@hort.net><br>> > Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 8:36 PM<br>> >
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Politics<br>> ><br>> ><br>> >> I agree that there
seems to be growing intolerance for differing <br>> >> ideas and<br>> >>
that seems to be supported by some of the political analysis
groups.<br>> > Seems<br>> >> that around 40% of the voters are stuck on
each side with little <br>> >> movement<br>> >> back and forth no matter
what the news or issues. Both parties <br>> >> target the<br>> >> true
6% undecided...now THAT is scary for a democracy. (Jesse, are <br>> >>
you<br>> >> truly in that 6%?)<br>> >><br>> >> Husband and I went to see
Fahrenheit 911 this afternoon...very<br>> >> interesting...biased but
definitely thought provoking. I had heard <br>> >> about<br>> >> some of
the Saudi connections on a talk show a month back...no one <br>> >>
knew<br>> >> what the caller was talking about...there is also a book on
this <br>> >> issue in<br>> >> addition to Moore's take.<br>> >><br>> >>
Bonnie Zone 6+ ETN<br>> >><br>> >><br>> >><br>> >><br>> >>> [Original
Message]<br>> >>> From: David Franzman <dfranzma@pacbell.net><br>> >>>
To: <gardenchat@hort.net><br>> >>> Date: 06/28/2004 1:51:50 PM<br>> >>>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Politics<br>> >>><br>> >>> Let me add something to
this. Bonnie I agree with you that politics <br>> >>> is<br>> > a<br>>
>>> difficult subject in a gardening group. I enjoy it because I
enjoy<br>> >> politics<br>> >>> and the discussion of ideas. I don't add
too much to it though <br>> >>> because<br>> > I<br>> >>> recognize that
there are different ideas out there and not everybody<br>> > likes<br>>
>>> debates.<br>> >>><br>> >>> However, none of us had the tag "Re-Elect
Nimrod and Ripoff for<br>> > President"<br>> >>> until Liz did which was
on her first

me
ssage she sent to the group.<br>> >> Perhaps<br>> >>> what she doesn't
like is the fact that many of us don't agree with <br>> >>> her<br>> >>>
position instead of the content and/or subject. You see I find a<br>> >
growing<br>> >>> lack of respect for differing views in this country
from both the <br>> >>> right<br>> >> and<br>> >>> left but I'm
thoroughly sick of those who profess to be conservative<br>> >>
calling<br>> >>> all of us in the middle or slightly left of center as
lefties, <br>> >>> liberals<br>> > or<br>> >>> commies and unAmerican to
boot.<br>> >>><br>> >>> Liz, if you didn't like politics mixed into the
garden soil then why <br>> >>> did<br>> >>> your initial message have
the Re-elect message at the bottom? Go and<br>> > see<br>> >>> the
movie! Stretch your mind. Keep an open mind and try and see <br>> >>>
what<br>> > the<br>> >>> other side sees sometimes. It may not change
your mind but it might<br>> > give<br>> >>> you a different
perspective.<br>> >>><br>> >>> David Franzman<br>> >>> A Touch of the
Tropics<br>> >>> www.atouchofthetropics.net<br>> >>> ----- Original
Message -----<br>> >>> From: "Kitty" <kmrsy@comcast.net><br>> >>> To:
<gardenchat@hort.net><br>> >>> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 9:37 PM<br>>
>>> Subject: Re: [CHAT] Fahrenheit 911<br>> >>><br>> >>><br>> >>>>
Bonnie, Liz, and All -<br>> >>>> Here is the original posting:<br>> >>>>
"I saw this movie today, and all I can say is that it was awesome!<br>>
>>> Everyone<br>> >>>> should make an effort to see it."<br>> >>>> The
responses were short items about ticket prices, distances to<br>> >>
theatres,<br>> >>>> plans to see it, and acquisition news.<br>> >>>>
There was no mention of "stupidity" in regard to opposing views. In<br>>
>> fact,<br>> >>>> no opposing views were voiced. I don't see any harm
in someone<br>> >> suggesting<br>> >>> a<br>> >>>> movie to the
group.<br>> >>>> In fact, I fully intend to see Two Brothers when it
gets to a <br>> >>>> theatre<br>> >>> close<br>> >>>> to me. I hope the
dog-lovers out t

here aren't offended by my saying<br>> > so.<br>> >>>><br>> >>>>
Kitty<br>> >>>><br>> >>>><br>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----<br>>
>>>> From: "Bonnie & Bill Morgan" <wmorgan972@ameritech.net><br>> >>>>
To: <gardenchat@hort.net><br>> >>>> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 10:42
PM<br>> >>>> Subject: RE: [CHAT] Fahrenheit 911<br>> >>>><br>> >>>><br>>
>>>>> Liz, not all of us are left in more than our handedness. It
does<br>> >> appear<br>> >>>>> that those with left political leanings
are more vocal at this <br>> >>>>> point<br>> >>> than<br>> >>>>> those
of us in the middle or leaning a little more right<br>> >
politically.<br>> >>> I<br>> >>>> am<br>> >>>>> not a fan of political
name calling and bashing either, regardless<br>> > of<br>> >>>>
party.<br>> >>>>> I do think that while there is freedom of speech,
courtesy would<br>> >> dictate<br>> >>>>> that the political discussions
should be done privately rather than<br>> > in<br>> >>> our<br>> >>>>>
normally friendly little garden chat group.<br>> >>>>><br>> >>>>>
Keeping it in this forum does make those of us with a different<br>> >>>
viewpoint<br>> >>>>> feel as though we are being told we are "stupid"
for seeing another<br>> >> side<br>> >>>> of<br>> >>>>> things by the
tone of recent discussions. I don't carry on about<br>> >> Kerry,<br>>
>>>> or<br>> >>>>> Kennedy (only to name a few) or the things I find so
distasteful <br>> >>>>> on<br>> >> the<br>> >>>>> left side, because I
consider you all as friends and as individuals<br>> >>>> capable<br>>
>>>>> of having independent ideas and I wouldn't want to make you think
I<br>> >>> didn't<br>> >>>>> hold you in high esteem even though I
disagree with much of what<br>> > I've<br>> >>>> heard<br>> >>>>>
politically on this list lately.<br>> >>>>><br>> >>>>> I do love all of
you out there, regardless of your politics, but I<br>> > too<br>> >>>
am<br>> >>>>> tiring of the one-sided nature of the political
discussions as of<br>> >> late.<br>> >>>>> Could we all get back to more
"friendly" and less political topi

cs
?<br>> >>> Even<br>> >>>>> topics regarding gardening, the ecology,
natural resources and <br>> >>>>> bills<br>> >>>>> associated with that
would be O.K. if it were couched as something<br>> > for<br>> >>>
all<br>> >>>>> to consider rather than laying blame and/or pointing
fingers to <br>> >>>>> this<br>> >>>>> individual or party as if
everything you read or hear in the press<br>> >> were<br>> >>>>> fact.
There are two sides to every story. And while we<br>> >
finger-point<br>> >> to<br>> >>>>> some unnamed evil, remember that our
society is what WE make of it<br>> > and<br>> >>> if<br>> >>>> we<br>>
>>>>> wanted only one view, we could relax and let someone become<br>> >
dictator.<br>> >>>>><br>> >>>>> O.K., I'm off my soapbox.<br>>
>>>>><br>> >>>>> Blessings,<br>> >>>>> Bonnie (SW OH - zone 5)<br>>
>>>>><br>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----<br>> >>>>> From:
owner-gardenchat@hort.net [o*@hort.net]<br>> >
On<br>> >>>> Behalf<br>> >>>>> Of Elizabeth Gessler<br>> >>>>> Sent:
Friday, June 25, 2004 7:43 PM<br>> >>>>> To: gardenchat@hort.net<br>>
>>>>> Subject: RE: [CHAT] Farenheit 911<br>> >>>>><br>> >>>>> Can
someone please sned me the instructions to unsubscribe from <br>> >>>>>
this<br>> >>> list.<br>> >>>> I<br>> >>>>> wasn't aware that this was a
politic list with obvious very left<br>> >>> leanings.<br>> >>>>> Liz in
PA<br>> >>>>><br>> >>>>> Re-elect Bush-Cheney in 2004<br>> >>>>><br>>
>>>>><br>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----<br>> >>>>> From:
owner-gardenchat@hort.net [o*@hort.net]<br>> >
On<br>> >>>> Behalf<br>> >>>>> Of Kitty<br>> >>>>> Sent: Friday, June
25, 2004 7:49 PM<br>> >>>>> To: gardenchat@hort.net<br>> >>>>> Subject:
Re: [CHAT] Farenheit 911<br>> >>>>><br>> >>>>> I really would love to
see it, almost went to the first showing<br>> > today<br>> >> at<br>>
>>>>> 11:55. But I reluctantly decided I couldn't spend the $10 it
would<br>> >> cost<br>> >>>> me<br>> >>>>> on a movie.<br>> >>>>> I was
thrilled to read, "When Fahrenheit 9/11 opened in New Yo

rk on<br>> >>>>> Wednesday, it broke box-office records, beating out
even Men in<br>> > Black<br>> >>> with<br>> >>>>> wall-to-wall sold-out
shows"<br>> >>>>><br>> >>>>> Kitty<br>> >>>>><br>> >>>>> ----- Original
Message -----<br>> >>>>> From: <Zemuly@aol.com><br>> >>>>> To:
<gardenchat@hort.net><br>> >>>>> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 6:22
PM<br>> >>>>> Subject: [CHAT] Farenheit 911<br>> >>>>><br>> >>>>><br>>
>>>>>> I saw this movie today, and all I can say is that it was
awesome!<br>> >>>>> Everyone<br>> >>>>>> should make an effort to see
it.<br>> >>>>>> zem<br>> >>>>>><br>> >>>>>><br>> >>
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