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Re:Hosta Sports (and VBG)?



     ON

Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 12:35:04 -0600

andrewl <andrewl@hostahaven.com>      Wrote

>>(Warning:  Lengthy and in-depth Hosta genetics manuscript.  Delete if not
interested in Hosta genetics). <<

     Hello Andrew, welcome back to posting status. Its good to hear from you
again. Your absence during a good part of the "Hosta Sports" discussion has
caught my attention for a while now. With respect I feel compelled to say
that my feelings are that the title of your "Hosta Genetics Manuscript"
serves as a very thin veil to a very clear agenda. I would have expected in
our new and brief acquaintance that you would have chosen to be considerably
more open and direct in addressing the members and the issues expressed by
them on the Open. I Intend to express my feelings about this posting in a
truly respectful way, as I agree with a portion of what you have said. about
the respect we need to give and receive to and from each other.
     If you take issue with my observations or criticism (and you may) I ask
you to let me know how you feel openly as your feelings are every bit as
important as mine or anyone else's are. This community has endured a great
deal of division and disruption and I find great respect for the burgeoning
attitudes and expressions of "moving on."

>>Maybe we're so wrapped up in expressing our egos that we've neglected to
learn how Hostas are expressing their genes?<<

     An absence of ego expression, however strong, In any community/family,
simply serves to give evidence of the serious, unhealthy, fearful and
threatening limits present. By basic definition any member of a healthy
community/family feels absolute freedom to express his/her ego in ways that
are appropriate, acceptable and supportive. My clear and stated opinion is
that there was an individual member of this community/family abusing healthy
expression, intellectually manipulating and attempting unrestricted dominance
on other members.

>>Apparently, our discussions quickly degenerate into bantering or name
calling, so no wonder we can't recruit more legitimate investigators<<   >>
Recently, the discussion got to the point that I just backed out and
submitted a request to be signed off the hosta-open.<<

     What you are calling, bickering, bantering and name calling I judge as
the healthier members of a community/family attempting to reestablish clear
limits and boundaries expected and acceptable within the group. As to
legitimacy of members and investigators, I feel that we have all been
privileged to participate and or observe healthy community/family dynamics in
an exercise of growth, value definition and clear reaffirmation of what will
or will not be acceptable by each member. Not remotely similar to what I have
come to understand as was the case in past community development attempts or
what I am told IS the case in other similar Hosta communities/families.
Andrew "backing out" and not adding strength, support and commitment to the
moral and ethical structure of the community/family serves no purpose but to
allow the threat to the well being of the group to prosper and the group to
suffer.

>>will send a message from that forum inviting people to join if they are
interested.  If you would like to be invited, please send me a note privately
so that I won't miss anyone who is seriously interested.  Hecklers need not
apply and you know who you are. <<

>>This is not to detract from the hosta-open, which is THE most excellent
forum on the net for the OPEN discussion of Hosta.  Our effort with the Hosta
Genetics forum and hostagenetics.com will be more to create a resource for
serious discussion on genetics.<<

     Andrew if you think that the free spirited members of this
community/family are remotely interested in an "Invitation" to any forum
designed with censorship and authority I think you may want to reassess your
observations. To imply that this community/family is doing anything but
"seriously discussing" genetics or any other intellectual area in Hosta
development could easily be taken by some members as an offensive assessment.

>>"Oh, I don't accept his work because I think he's sloppy", or, "I don't
like his broken English and so he must be sloppy in his research", or "He has
a different moral ethic than that to which I subscribe, so I will discount
his work".  No, the only way to legitimately challenge or support the work of
another is by replication which provides empirical evidence upon which you
can hang your hat. <<

     Andrew again, with respect, I disagree. I have seen nothing posted or
otherwise implied as to anything questioned in "Ben's work." I believe his
paper on "Ploidy" is generally accepted by most. I do however remember many
posts bringing Ben's alleged "stolen work" into very serious question. I
openly questioned and deemed his work "suspect" specifically because of his
clearly delineated comments and very boldly stated "Moral ethic" on taking
another's work, claiming it as his own and profiting from it. I have had
provided to me (as well all others) documented evidence that for the purpose
in this community/family, of value clarification and deeming what (if any)
behavioral limits are present and accepted, is overwhelmingly sufficient.

>>Ben's assertion of mitotic recombination has been widely accepted <<<

     Accepted by who, Andrew? Have you seen the e-mails that Ben won't show
us?

>>As many of us know, the only necessary criterion for scientific research to
be considered valid is the application of the scientific method of study to
the effort, and acceptance of the results and conclusions by a group of one's
peers. <<

     Only if it is your work and not stolen.

>>> It will NEVER be resolved by us because we are not a jury and thus are
rendered incapable of reaching an unbiased verdict on this matter.<<

     Andrew are you saying that we as a community/family are not able or
permitted to pass judgment within the group? Did I understand correctly that
you are planning to be the only authority to pass judgment within the new
http://dev.hostahaven.com/discus
...http://hostagenetics.com communities that
you are starting?

>>Toward the goal of pure science, I will be asking those who join the Hosta
Genetics Discussion Forum to try hard to eliminate egos and emotions.  I know
that is a high calling, but if we are to make progress quickly I believe this
is an appropriate request.  If I have to take on the role of Carolyn
Schaffner to keep us from attacking each other, then so be it.  I may edit
out comments which lend little to the discussion other than to advance the
cause of inflammatory rhetoric.  Of course, no one may ever post and then my
job will become rather simple, won't it.  <<

     Andrew, the only conceivable purpose that censorship serves is power
and control.

>>While I am but a newbie to this arena, I realized several months ago that
Ben Z. offers something of merit to the Hosta community because of his
molecular biological research.    Through flow cytometry, he and an associate
have published an article listing various ploidy levels in 84 different Hosta
cultivars<<

     Andrew I believe that I am more of a newbie than you are. I feel the
same as you in this area. In reading Ben's "Ploidy" article (3 or more times)
I learned a lot and found it valuable. I genuinely hope he chooses to "mend
his bridges" and continue this work. It will help me personally and the Hosta
community greatly. The primary issue I have with Ben are arrogance and
honesty, they can be repaired if he chooses.

>> but I am not inclined to coddle those whose sole agenda appears to be
salacity, moral decadence, slander, libelous innuendoes, or waste our time by
being flip.<<

     Andrew I ask you to exercise your strength of character and courage and
identify those that fit this description. I chose to be present for every day
and posting and I am not aware of anyone fitting this description as there
"sole agenda."

>>Let me state that I have no intention of trying to control the direction on
any discussion on Sports or Hosta genetics. I know very little on this
subject.   It would be ludicrous and impossible for me to attempt to control
its direction.  I can, however, take some time to freely invite people who
have an interest in Hosta genetics to submit plant samples for testing, and I
can ask them to join an open discussion forum, where genetics will be the
primary topic.  I hope it's still a free country, even if not a free world.<<

     What you have definitively and completely described is not remotely an
"open discussion forum." I assess it as a censored forum with you in charge.

>>TIA, to all of you Hosta Scholars.  You know who you are...  Party on... <<

     Thankyou Andrew, I will...........I love that title, it feels real good.

                                                             Jim Towle

     PS. I chose to use the term community/family twelve times in this
posting. Is that what we are?



















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