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Who is attacking whom?


        Who has attacked whom?
   Date:
        6 Sep 1999 21:06:02 EDT
   From:
        Hawesj@gcnet.net
      This message is part 2 of a previous message >>>

I heard him speak at the
  Hostas in Focus Festival last fall.  I have read his writing
  with interest in the Hosta Journal.  However, there
  is another aspect to Jim Hawes which members of
  the Internet Hosta Robin need to know aboutone I
  have personally experienced.[NO WE DIDNT NEED TO KNOW THAT HE AND YOU
WERE
HAVING SOME DISCUSSION ABOUT GOD KNOWS WHAT---AND PERHAPS NONE OF US
CARE
ABOUT]

  Jim Hawes seems completely intolerant of opinions different
  from his own and lashes out at members of the
  hosta robin with personal, insulting, vicious, infuriating emails
  that don't get posted to the whole Robin.[AND THIS SOMEHOW DIFFERS
FROM YOU
RECENT USE OF THE ROBIN??????????????????????????????????????]

  He also misrepresents
  input he has gotten about issues he has raised to the whole Robin
  in a way that appears to me to be intellectually dishonest.  His
  recent posting summarizing input he received about his challenge
  for someone to do cost-benefit analysis of registration of new
  hostas was just plain dishonest.  My response to his original
  query was sent only to him.  He berated me in an unbelievable
  private email for my opinions (which he completely misinterpreted)
  and then ignored what I said in his public report posted to the
Robin,[WHAT
PART OF THIS AM I MISSING?  HE SENDS PRIVATE AND YOU POST THE WHOLE MESS

TO
THE ROBIN---IF ANYONE SHOULD BE OFFENDED I QUESTION WHETHER IT SHOULD BE

YOU?]
  dismissing it as irrelevant.  [IT APPEARS TO ME THAT THAT IS THE
PEROGATIVE
OF ACADAMIA.....]

  The central theme in his email to me was that I should keep my
  opinions to myself and not post them on the Robin. [WELL IT APPEAR
THAT YOU
SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THAT ADVICE TO HEART, AND YOU WOULDNT BE GETTING A
BLISTERING FROM ME....AND I SUPPOSE OTHERS] This is the only
  seriously negative reaction I've ever gotten to anything I've ever
posted
[HOLD ON TO YOUR HAIR...]

  to the Robin, and it was way, way over the top; nasty and
personal.[AGAIN, I
ASK, HOW DO YOU SIT IN SUCH A HIGH CHAIR (lol) OF POWER THAT YOU ARE THE

ULTIMATE DETERMINOR OF WHAT IS RIGHT, GOOD, AND PURE IN THE WORLD OF
BOTANY,
HOSTA, OR ANYTHING FOR THAT MATTER....]

  I immediately sent Jim an apology which also made clear that I found
  his email inappropriate and infuriating.[LET ME GET THIS PART
STRAIGHT...YOU
SENT AN INFURIATED AND INAPPROPRIATE APOLOGY.....]  He never deigned to
reply.[PERHAPS BECAUSE HE IS TOTALLY STUNNED?  IF THAT APOLOGY IS
ANYTHING
LIKE THIS LETTER I WOULD BE SCARED TOO.]He
  seems not to care if he hurt my feelings or worse[THATS NOT THE HAWES
I
KNOW], he just wants to
  stifle
  dissent, i.e. prevent free discussion of ideas on the Robin if they
  disagree with his position [DO YOU HAVE A SUPPLIER FOR THIS MANURE?].

  I suggest that other members of the Robin think twice before
  responding to anything Jim Hawes posts.[STICK IT IN YOUR EAR STEVE,
THE LAST
PERSON WHO TOLD ME WHO MY FRIENDS COULD BE, I DISASSOCIATED WITH IN 5th
GRADE
-- AFTER I GAVE HIM ALL THE MONEY IN MY POCKET -- RECENTLY SAW THAT HE
WAS
JAILED FOR EXTORTION....]  The consequences
  could be very unsettling because even if you are supporting his view,
  he may misinterpret your words and attack you in a vicious way.[STEVE
I HAVE
A LIFE....THIS IS ABOUT HOSTA....NOT THE INTEGRATION AND INFILTRATION OF

COMMUNISM IN WESTERN CULTURE OR CANADA.....THIS IS A DARN {?} GARDEN
CLUB,
FOR CRYING OUT LOUD...]

  I suspect [IN OTHERS WORDS YOU DONT KNOW, BUT WILL PONTIFICATE ON IT
ANYWAY....] the recent episode involving Stevenson, Zonneveld, and
  Hawes reflects this same behavior.  David, ever the gentleman,
  accepted full responsibility for misunderstanding a conversation with
  his irascible curmudgeonship [WOW, HOW SHARP OF YOU...].  I'm not the
registrar and I don't have to
  be so polite [APPARENTLY NOT!!!].  At the time, I defended Jim Hawes
in a
private email
  to Ben Zonneveld.  Now, having experienced the Hawes behavior first
hand,
  I rather think Jim Hawes may have gotten what he deserves. [THOUGH I
DIDNT
STUDY THE GOSPELS SURROUNDING THAT CONTROVERSY.... I BELIEVE HAWES'
POSITION
WAS DOMINANT ACCORDING TO ALL WHO FOLLOW THIS STUFF....]

  When I find that someone is knowingly and intentionally
misrepresenting
  facts, I develop a distrust of his work, his explanations, and his
  opinions.[WELCOME TO THE CLUB SON.....IT WILL BE A LONG TIME BEFORE
ANY
SUBMISSION OF YOURS IS READ WITH ANY SEMBLANCE OF TRUST, FORETHOUGHT, OR

DIGNITY....]
  Jim Hawes very recently posted an extensive discussion of fastigiated
  flower stems.  I find some aspects of his presentation likely to be
  completely
  wrong (and an eminent Berkeley plant physiologist agrees)[I SUPPOSE
BASED ON
YOUR RELATING OF THE FACTS?]however, I am
  not about to raise them either on the robin or to him in a private
email [IT
SEEMS AS IF YOU JUST DID CITE AN UNNAMED SOURCE, REGARDING UNNAMED
INFO...SO
YOU DID RAISE IT, DID YOU NOT?]
  given
  what happened the last time.

  I therefore suggest that you take his erudite-appearing postings [AND
HOW DO
THEY DIFFER FROM THE UN-EDITED VERSION OF THIS LETTER?] with a
  grain of salt.[YOU MEAN ANY POSTING SIMILAR TO THIS ONE, RIGHT?]  They

are
probably a twisted mixture of truth, half-truth, [SEE DIRECTLY
ABOVE....]
  and
  baloney, and his behavior tends to guarantee[OH IT APPEARS YOU ARE
WELL
POSITIONED FOR THIS DETERMINATION OF PERSONAL BEHAVIOUR {FOR THE
CA-NUCKS
AGAIN}] that you will never
  be able to find out what is what and live to tell about it.

  I will take Paul Aden any day.[YOU CAN HAVE HIM AND HIS SHADE SOCIETY
-- I
PERSONALLY THINK HE NEEDS TO BE IN THE SHADE, AND NEEDS A GOOD DIARETIC
TO
DEAL WITH HIS INTESTINAL FIXATIONS]  His hostas are real, they are
registered,
  and
  I grow and love them [WE DO AGREE ON THIS PARTICULAR ASPECT].  His
private
emails to me have been very friendly
  and civilized.  His postings to a subset of the Robin have all been
  wolves
  disguised in wolves' clothing, i.e. straightforward, even blunt.[WELL
ENOUGH
ON PAUL....LETS GET BACK TO BASTING JIM....WITH NO FURTHER ADO....]  Jim

  Hawes
  is a whole different matter.  His postings to the Robin have been
wolves
  disguised in sheep's clothing, i.e. misrepresentations represented as
  facts, and
  who-knows-what represented as science education [UNLESS I MISS
UNDERSTAND
THE ROBIN -- THIS IS NOT EDUCATION IN THE STRICTEST TERMS -- BUT A FREE
FLOW
OR DISSEMINATION OF IDEAS AND THOUGHTS--I DONT RECALL ANY REQUIREMENTS
SUGGESTING THAT ALL HYPOTHESIS' NEED BE SUPPORTED BY DOCUMENTATION] for
the
masses provided
  the masses are obsequious, obeisant, and obedient.[BIG WORDS...EH]

  When Jim Hawes speaks I suggest you: 1) keep your mouth shut; 2) wear
  your armor; 3) keep your distance; 4) maintain a healthy skepticism.
[I WILL ADD 5) LISTEN AND LEARN --
AS TO #4 THAT GOES WITH ANY ACADAMIC POSTURING -- I DONT RECALL HAWES
EVER
SAYING HE KNEW ALL OR REPRESENTED THAT HE WAS GOD'S GIFT TO HOSTA BOTONY

...AS TO #3, WE ARE ON THE WEB....

AND....AS TO #1... IT SEEMS A FOOL ALWAYS BREAKS HIS OWN #1
RULE....STEVE.....



<<< Continued to next message >>>

............................................................................................................................

<<< This message is part 2 of a previous message >>>

  Still angry, still distrustful, and still waiting for a private reply
[WHY
SO YOU CAN POST THAT TO THE ROBIN ALSO?]
  from Jim Hawes,
  Steve Chamberlain >>

[SO WERE DO I STAND NOW?  PERHAPS I HAVE DONE NO BETTER THAN STEVE AND
JIM
[IN THE MYSTERIOUS NON-POSTED LETTERS] {MY COUNSELOR SEEMS TO THINK
SO.....AND SUGGESTED I SLEEP ON THIS BEFORE I SEND IT -- NAW, ITS
GOING...}

AM I NO BETTER THAN THE ALLEGED CULPRIT, OR PERHAPS THE ALLEGED WRONGED
PERSON...HAVE I NOT JUST LAMBASTED AN ELECTRONIC NEIGHBOR TO DEFEND A
  POSITION I DO NOT TRUTHFULLY KNOW, OR FOR THAT FACT CARE ABOUT??

PEOPLE, WE ARE ALL NEIGHBORS IN THE ELECTRONIC NEIGHBORHOOD -- WOULD YOU

YELL
THE SAME INTENTIONS OVER THE FENCE TO THE PERSON WHO LIVES NEXT
DOOR???   I
THINK NOT.  HOW ABOUT A LITTLE DECORUM SO THAT WE CAN GET SOME GOOD OUT
OF
THIS ROBIN...AND JIM....LIGHTEN UP, AND I BET STEVE WILL ALSO...

....AND ALL THE REST OF US CAN SLEEP SAFE KNOWING THAT THE ROBIN WILL BE

SAFE
AND SECURE, COME NEXT MORNING....]

STEVE... I HOPE YOU MADE IT THIS FAR.... I HOPE YOU ARE NOT TO
INFURIATED BY
THIS POST -- IT CLEARLY ESPOUSES THE EXACT SUBJECT THAT I BROUGHT UP AT
THE
ROBIN CONVENTION MEETING -- WE ARE ALL FRIENDS ON THIS ROBIN.....ARE WE
NOT?

WHAT DOES JIM HAVE TO GAIN FROM THIS....WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO GAIN FROM
THIS.... WHAT DO MOST OF US CARE????

I DEMAND APOLOGIES FROM BOTH JIM AND STEVE FOR DISTURBING MY THURSDAY
EVENING....AND BOYS...WE WILL SEND YOU BOTH TO YOUR ROOM IF YOU DONT
SHAKE
HANDS AND MAKE UP....

IF I HAD MY DRUTHERS I WOULD PREFER NOT TO LOSE EITHER OF YOU FROM THE
ROBIN-- AND I TRULY BELIEVE THAT THESE  TYPES OF LETTERS ARE SCARING
PEOPLE
OFF THE ROBIN......

LIGHTEN UP... ITS A GARDEN FORUM....NOT THE APOCALYPSE.....

BELIEVE IT OR NOT, WITH RESPECT TO STEVE AND JIM,

  KEN,


WHERE WE GOT 3.5 INCHES OF RAIN IN METRO DETROIT, IN 45 MINUTES LAST
NIGHT

ZONE 5
=========

......................................................................................................................

Let me digress to explain some of the plot.When I posted my seven
questions to Steve, simultaneously,  someone (let's call him person A)
also posted a very foulmouth rebuttal to Steve, unknown to me..Also
simultaneously someone else (person B) also  posted a request for
information of Steve...why are you attacking Jim Hawes. Unaware, Steve
cut and pasted to my post the foulmouth rebuttal as though I had written

it and sent it to Steve. He sent it to the nice lady, a school teacher,
who had made the inquiry. I will not repeat the obscene additions to my
letter. The following post describes in part recent  correspopndence
between person  A and Steve in which he acknowledges sending the "fake"
correspondence, as he characterizes it.Read other post and play
detective. Figure out the plot of what actually happened.

...............................................................................................................................

Subject:
          [nise] the real evil among us? = Steve Chamberlain and crew!
     Date:
          Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:37:38 -0400
     From: Person A

 Reply-To:           nise@onelist.com
       To:           Steve Chamberlain <Steve_Chamberlain@isr.syr.edu>
At 05:54 PM 9/1/99 +0000, Steve Chamberlain
<Steve_Chamberlain@isr.syr.edu>
wrote:
>          Reply to:   Free Speech and Hosta Hybrids
>Jim,
>
>You don't seem to understand e-mail etiquette, i.e. when C.H. Falstad
or I
>or anyone send you an e-mail addressed to you privately, it is just
plain
>inappropriate to respond on the robin.  Yet you consistently do that.

Stever ..I see that by the To: (header above of this email?) this
particular e'mail is addressed to you personally so therefore, I am
assuming it is not going through any other list-servers, except those
which
I personally may or may not choose to designate in my Blind Copy
sectors,
which you shall not see, unless you are a member therein; and this, is
my
choice of doing so ..not yours ...thank you for the advise nontheless.
You
have something to hide Steve? ...that you don't want your e'mails put on

top of the table of life's game, openly and publicly???
*FOR EXAMPLE* and to whit:
I recall, years ago, Steve Chamberlain went after Jim Hawes openly,
calling
him "EVIL" ;at which point, I sent you a very foul-mouthed email
rebuttle!
...with wording coming from a humorous cassette tape.  Then you had the
nerve, to attach my post to the bottom of one from Jim Hawes, and send
it
to a third party, whom was also questioning your evil accusations
directed
towards Mr. Hawes -- and you were pretending, that Mr. Hawes wrote it
all?  Of course, that person had already seen my post, because she had
received a blind copy upon my initial transmission to you, so that blew
your cover real good ..too bad for you, but smart move by me!  So who
was
the real evil-monger, after that episode with Steve Chamberlain verses
James Hawes was over?  Everyone reading this, can rest assured that this

'TRUTH' is never ever be proven wrong: "One can fool some of the people
some of the time! ...but one can never ever fool all of the people all
of
the time"! (author unknown)


...............................................................................................................................

To which Steve replied:Subject:
        [PRIVATE] Fwd: RE: the real evil among us? = Steve Chamberlain
and crew!
   Date:
        Thu, 02 Sep 1999 22:45:00 -0400

[PRIVATE EMAIL FORWARDING TO JIM...
>From: Steve Chamberlain <Steve_Chamberlain@isr.syr.ed
 Reply to:   RE: the real evil among us? = Steve Chamberlain and
> crew!
>B,
>
>Jim Hawes is perceived by some as a sweet, kindly old man and by others

as
>difficult, lonely, and without common sense.  Those of us, like you,
who
>delight in spreading stuff around and inflaming passions have a long
and
>honorable tradition in the US going to Patrick Henry and before.  I
don't
>know enough about ..............history to cite the antecedents.
>I sent the "fake" e-mail at the suggestion to three eminent members of
the
>AHS leadership to flush out the hidden interconnections ( of your
group) and it did so.

>In retrospect, I regretted doing so and apologized by e-mail and to Jim

in
>writing.  I made many efforts to smooth over any hurt.  Despite my
earlier
>efforts,  Jim  recently lodged an unsolicited accusation that I publish

>bad science.  I'm not going to tolerate that from anyone unless it
might
>be true.  I have no particularly animus for Jim Hawes, but I suspect it

is
>not symmetrical.  I daily deal with faculty colleagues and students
more
>difficult.  I just don't understand why he e-mails what he e-mails.
>>
>Spread this e-mail around; I'm certain you will!
>
>Cheers,
>Steve
>
>Dr. Steven C. Chamberlain
>Professor and Chairman
>Department of Bioengineering and Neuroscience
>Syracuse University
>Syracuse, NY
.................................................................................

So that's the story, Glen.. Told by e-mail messages. If you are
disgusted with it, I don't blame you. A story full of  animosity,
intrigue, slander, fraud and defamation of character,  all pointing in
one direction, "perceived" by  me as a personal attack. It continues to
this day. How do you and the fine citizens of Spingfield perceive it?

And what is this about suggestions  from three iminent AHS Leaders to
send the "fake " message with obscenities to try to flush out hidden
connections between a few hosta friend discussing various and sundry
subjects of mutual interest? You were one of us, Glen...was there
anything wrong with what we were doing that required Flushing Out? All
of this is so wierd and incredible that one may doubt the varacity of

<<< Continued to next message >>>


        Who has attacked whom?
   Date:
        6 Sep 1999 21:06:02 EDT
   From:
        Hawesj@gcnet.net
     To:
        Hawesj@gcnet.net




<<< This message is part 2 of a previous message >>>

I heard him speak at the
  Hostas in Focus Festival last fall.  I have read his writing
  with interest in the Hosta Journal.  However, there
  is another aspect to Jim Hawes which members of
  the Internet Hosta Robin need to know aboutone I
  have personally experienced.[NO WE DIDNT NEED TO KNOW THAT HE AND YOU
WERE
HAVING SOME DISCUSSION ABOUT GOD KNOWS WHAT---AND PERHAPS NONE OF US
CARE
ABOUT]

  Jim Hawes seems completely intolerant of opinions different
  from his own and lashes out at members of the
  hosta robin with personal, insulting, vicious, infuriating emails
  that don't get posted to the whole Robin.[AND THIS SOMEHOW DIFFERS
FROM YOU
RECENT USE OF THE ROBIN??????????????????????????????????????]

  He also misrepresents
  input he has gotten about issues he has raised to the whole Robin
  in a way that appears to me to be intellectually dishonest.  His
  recent posting summarizing input he received about his challenge
  for someone to do cost-benefit analysis of registration of new
  hostas was just plain dishonest.  My response to his original
  query was sent only to him.  He berated me in an unbelievable
  private email for my opinions (which he completely misinterpreted)
  and then ignored what I said in his public report posted to the
Robin,[WHAT
PART OF THIS AM I MISSING?  HE SENDS PRIVATE AND YOU POST THE WHOLE MESS

TO
THE ROBIN---IF ANYONE SHOULD BE OFFENDED I QUESTION WHETHER IT SHOULD BE

YOU?]
  dismissing it as irrelevant.  [IT APPEARS TO ME THAT THAT IS THE
PEROGATIVE
OF ACADAMIA.....]

  The central theme in his email to me was that I should keep my
  opinions to myself and not post them on the Robin. [WELL IT APPEAR
THAT YOU
SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THAT ADVICE TO HEART, AND YOU WOULDNT BE GETTING A
BLISTERING FROM ME....AND I SUPPOSE OTHERS] This is the only
  seriously negative reaction I've ever gotten to anything I've ever
posted
[HOLD ON TO YOUR HAIR...]

  to the Robin, and it was way, way over the top; nasty and
personal.[AGAIN, I
ASK, HOW DO YOU SIT IN SUCH A HIGH CHAIR (lol) OF POWER THAT YOU ARE THE

ULTIMATE DETERMINOR OF WHAT IS RIGHT, GOOD, AND PURE IN THE WORLD OF
BOTANY,
HOSTA, OR ANYTHING FOR THAT MATTER....]

  I immediately sent Jim an apology which also made clear that I found
  his email inappropriate and infuriating.[LET ME GET THIS PART
STRAIGHT...YOU
SENT AN INFURIATED AND INAPPROPRIATE APOLOGY.....]  He never deigned to
reply.[PERHAPS BECAUSE HE IS TOTALLY STUNNED?  IF THAT APOLOGY IS
ANYTHING
LIKE THIS LETTER I WOULD BE SCARED TOO.]He
  seems not to care if he hurt my feelings or worse[THATS NOT THE HAWES
I
KNOW], he just wants to
  stifle
  dissent, i.e. prevent free discussion of ideas on the Robin if they
  disagree with his position [DO YOU HAVE A SUPPLIER FOR THIS MANURE?].

  I suggest that other members of the Robin think twice before
  responding to anything Jim Hawes posts.[STICK IT IN YOUR EAR STEVE,
THE LAST
PERSON WHO TOLD ME WHO MY FRIENDS COULD BE, I DISASSOCIATED WITH IN 5th
GRADE
-- AFTER I GAVE HIM ALL THE MONEY IN MY POCKET -- RECENTLY SAW THAT HE
WAS
JAILED FOR EXTORTION....]  The consequences
  could be very unsettling because even if you are supporting his view,
  he may misinterpret your words and attack you in a vicious way.[STEVE
I HAVE
A LIFE....THIS IS ABOUT HOSTA....NOT THE INTEGRATION AND INFILTRATION OF

COMMUNISM IN WESTERN CULTURE OR CANADA.....THIS IS A DARN {?} GARDEN
CLUB,
FOR CRYING OUT LOUD...]

  I suspect [IN OTHERS WORDS YOU DONT KNOW, BUT WILL PONTIFICATE ON IT
ANYWAY....] the recent episode involving Stevenson, Zonneveld, and
  Hawes reflects this same behavior.  David, ever the gentleman,
  accepted full responsibility for misunderstanding a conversation with
  his irascible curmudgeonship [WOW, HOW SHARP OF YOU...].  I'm not the
registrar and I don't have to
  be so polite [APPARENTLY NOT!!!].  At the time, I defended Jim Hawes
in a
private email
  to Ben Zonneveld.  Now, having experienced the Hawes behavior first
hand,
  I rather think Jim Hawes may have gotten what he deserves. [THOUGH I
DIDNT
STUDY THE GOSPELS SURROUNDING THAT CONTROVERSY.... I BELIEVE HAWES'
POSITION
WAS DOMINANT ACCORDING TO ALL WHO FOLLOW THIS STUFF....]

  When I find that someone is knowingly and intentionally
misrepresenting
  facts, I develop a distrust of his work, his explanations, and his
  opinions.[WELCOME TO THE CLUB SON.....IT WILL BE A LONG TIME BEFORE
ANY
SUBMISSION OF YOURS IS READ WITH ANY SEMBLANCE OF TRUST, FORETHOUGHT, OR

DIGNITY....]
  Jim Hawes very recently posted an extensive discussion of fastigiated
  flower stems.  I find some aspects of his presentation likely to be
  completely
  wrong (and an eminent Berkeley plant physiologist agrees)[I SUPPOSE
BASED ON
YOUR RELATING OF THE FACTS?]however, I am
  not about to raise them either on the robin or to him in a private
email [IT
SEEMS AS IF YOU JUST DID CITE AN UNNAMED SOURCE, REGARDING UNNAMED
INFO...SO
YOU DID RAISE IT, DID YOU NOT?]
  given
  what happened the last time.

  I therefore suggest that you take his erudite-appearing postings [AND
HOW DO
THEY DIFFER FROM THE UN-EDITED VERSION OF THIS LETTER?] with a
  grain of salt.[YOU MEAN ANY POSTING SIMILAR TO THIS ONE, RIGHT?]  They

are
probably a twisted mixture of truth, half-truth, [SEE DIRECTLY
ABOVE....]
  and
  baloney, and his behavior tends to guarantee[OH IT APPEARS YOU ARE
WELL
POSITIONED FOR THIS DETERMINATION OF PERSONAL BEHAVIOUR {FOR THE
CA-NUCKS
AGAIN}] that you will never
  be able to find out what is what and live to tell about it.

  I will take Paul Aden any day.[YOU CAN HAVE HIM AND HIS SHADE SOCIETY
-- I
PERSONALLY THINK HE NEEDS TO BE IN THE SHADE, AND NEEDS A GOOD DIARETIC
TO
DEAL WITH HIS INTESTINAL FIXATIONS]  His hostas are real, they are
registered,
  and
  I grow and love them [WE DO AGREE ON THIS PARTICULAR ASPECT].  His
private
emails to me have been very friendly
  and civilized.  His postings to a subset of the Robin have all been
  wolves
  disguised in wolves' clothing, i.e. straightforward, even blunt.[WELL
ENOUGH
ON PAUL....LETS GET BACK TO BASTING JIM....WITH NO FURTHER ADO....]  Jim

  Hawes
  is a whole different matter.  His postings to the Robin have been
wolves
  disguised in sheep's clothing, i.e. misrepresentations represented as
  facts, and
  who-knows-what represented as science education [UNLESS I MISS
UNDERSTAND
THE ROBIN -- THIS IS NOT EDUCATION IN THE STRICTEST TERMS -- BUT A FREE
FLOW
OR DISSEMINATION OF IDEAS AND THOUGHTS--I DONT RECALL ANY REQUIREMENTS
SUGGESTING THAT ALL HYPOTHESIS' NEED BE SUPPORTED BY DOCUMENTATION] for
the
masses provided
  the masses are obsequious, obeisant, and obedient.[BIG WORDS...EH]

  When Jim Hawes speaks I suggest you: 1) keep your mouth shut; 2) wear
  your armor; 3) keep your distance; 4) maintain a healthy skepticism.
[I WILL ADD 5) LISTEN AND LEARN --
AS TO #4 THAT GOES WITH ANY ACADAMIC POSTURING -- I DONT RECALL HAWES
EVER
SAYING HE KNEW ALL OR REPRESENTED THAT HE WAS GOD'S GIFT TO HOSTA BOTONY

...AS TO #3, WE ARE ON THE WEB....

AND....AS TO #1... IT SEEMS A FOOL ALWAYS BREAKS HIS OWN #1
RULE....STEVE.....



<<< Continued to next message >>>

............................................................................................................................

<<< This message is part 2 of a previous message >>>

  Still angry, still distrustful, and still waiting for a private reply
[WHY
SO YOU CAN POST THAT TO THE ROBIN ALSO?]
  from Jim Hawes,
  Steve Chamberlain >>

[SO WERE DO I STAND NOW?  PERHAPS I HAVE DONE NO BETTER THAN STEVE AND
JIM
[IN THE MYSTERIOUS NON-POSTED LETTERS] {MY COUNSELOR SEEMS TO THINK
SO.....AND SUGGESTED I SLEEP ON THIS BEFORE I SEND IT -- NAW, ITS
GOING...}

AM I NO BETTER THAN THE ALLEGED CULPRIT, OR PERHAPS THE ALLEGED WRONGED
PERSON...HAVE I NOT JUST LAMBASTED AN ELECTRONIC NEIGHBOR TO DEFEND A
  POSITION I DO NOT TRUTHFULLY KNOW, OR FOR THAT FACT CARE ABOUT??

PEOPLE, WE ARE ALL NEIGHBORS IN THE ELECTRONIC NEIGHBORHOOD -- WOULD YOU

YELL
THE SAME INTENTIONS OVER THE FENCE TO THE PERSON WHO LIVES NEXT
DOOR???   I
THINK NOT.  HOW ABOUT A LITTLE DECORUM SO THAT WE CAN GET SOME GOOD OUT
OF
THIS ROBIN...AND JIM....LIGHTEN UP, AND I BET STEVE WILL ALSO...

....AND ALL THE REST OF US CAN SLEEP SAFE KNOWING THAT THE ROBIN WILL BE

SAFE
AND SECURE, COME NEXT MORNING....]

STEVE... I HOPE YOU MADE IT THIS FAR.... I HOPE YOU ARE NOT TO
INFURIATED BY
THIS POST -- IT CLEARLY ESPOUSES THE EXACT SUBJECT THAT I BROUGHT UP AT
THE
ROBIN CONVENTION MEETING -- WE ARE ALL FRIENDS ON THIS ROBIN.....ARE WE
NOT?

WHAT DOES JIM HAVE TO GAIN FROM THIS....WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO GAIN FROM
THIS.... WHAT DO MOST OF US CARE????

I DEMAND APOLOGIES FROM BOTH JIM AND STEVE FOR DISTURBING MY THURSDAY
EVENING....AND BOYS...WE WILL SEND YOU BOTH TO YOUR ROOM IF YOU DONT
SHAKE
HANDS AND MAKE UP....

IF I HAD MY DRUTHERS I WOULD PREFER NOT TO LOSE EITHER OF YOU FROM THE
ROBIN-- AND I TRULY BELIEVE THAT THESE  TYPES OF LETTERS ARE SCARING
PEOPLE
OFF THE ROBIN......

LIGHTEN UP... ITS A GARDEN FORUM....NOT THE APOCALYPSE.....

BELIEVE IT OR NOT, WITH RESPECT TO STEVE AND JIM,

  KEN,


WHERE WE GOT 3.5 INCHES OF RAIN IN METRO DETROIT, IN 45 MINUTES LAST
NIGHT

ZONE 5
=========

......................................................................................................................

Let me digress to explain some of the plot.When I posted my seven
questions to Steve, simultaneously,  someone (let's call him person A)
also posted a very foulmouth rebuttal to Steve, unknown to me..Also
simultaneously someone else (person B) also  posted a request for
information of Steve...why are you attacking Jim Hawes. Unaware, Steve
cut and pasted to my post the foulmouth rebuttal as though I had written

it and sent it to Steve. He sent it to the nice lady, a school teacher,
who had made the inquiry. I will not repeat the obscene additions to my
letter. The following post describes in part recent  correspopndence
between person  A and Steve in which he acknowledges sending the "fake"
correspondence, as he characterizes it.Read other post and play
detective. Figure out the plot of what actually happened.

...............................................................................................................................

Subject:
          [nise] the real evil among us? = Steve Chamberlain and crew!
     Date:
          Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:37:38 -0400
     From: Person A

 Reply-To:           nise@onelist.com
       To:           Steve Chamberlain <Steve_Chamberlain@isr.syr.edu>
At 05:54 PM 9/1/99 +0000, Steve Chamberlain
<Steve_Chamberlain@isr.syr.edu>
wrote:
>          Reply to:   Free Speech and Hosta Hybrids
>Jim,
>
>You don't seem to understand e-mail etiquette, i.e. when C.H. Falstad
or I
>or anyone send you an e-mail addressed to you privately, it is just
plain
>inappropriate to respond on the robin.  Yet you consistently do that.

Stever ..I see that by the To: (header above of this email?) this
particular e'mail is addressed to you personally so therefore, I am
assuming it is not going through any other list-servers, except those
which
I personally may or may not choose to designate in my Blind Copy
sectors,
which you shall not see, unless you are a member therein; and this, is
my
choice of doing so ..not yours ...thank you for the advise nontheless.
You
have something to hide Steve? ...that you don't want your e'mails put on

top of the table of life's game, openly and publicly???
*FOR EXAMPLE* and to whit:
I recall, years ago, Steve Chamberlain went after Jim Hawes openly,
calling
him "EVIL" ;at which point, I sent you a very foul-mouthed email
rebuttle!
...with wording coming from a humorous cassette tape.  Then you had the
nerve, to attach my post to the bottom of one from Jim Hawes, and send
it
to a third party, whom was also questioning your evil accusations
directed
towards Mr. Hawes -- and you were pretending, that Mr. Hawes wrote it
all?  Of course, that person had already seen my post, because she had
received a blind copy upon my initial transmission to you, so that blew
your cover real good ..too bad for you, but smart move by me!  So who
was
the real evil-monger, after that episode with Steve Chamberlain verses
James Hawes was over?  Everyone reading this, can rest assured that this

'TRUTH' is never ever be proven wrong: "One can fool some of the people
some of the time! ...but one can never ever fool all of the people all
of
the time"! (author unknown)


...............................................................................................................................

To which Steve replied:Subject:
        [PRIVATE] Fwd: RE: the real evil among us? = Steve Chamberlain
and crew!
   Date:
        Thu, 02 Sep 1999 22:45:00 -0400

[PRIVATE EMAIL FORWARDING TO JIM...
>From: Steve Chamberlain <Steve_Chamberlain@isr.syr.ed
 Reply to:   RE: the real evil among us? = Steve Chamberlain and
> crew!
>B,
>
>Jim Hawes is perceived by some as a sweet, kindly old man and by others

as
>difficult, lonely, and without common sense.  Those of us, like you,
who
>delight in spreading stuff around and inflaming passions have a long
and
>honorable tradition in the US going to Patrick Henry and before.  I
don't
>know enough about ..............history to cite the antecedents.
>I sent the "fake" e-mail at the suggestion to three eminent members of
the
>AHS leadership to flush out the hidden interconnections ( of your
group) and it did so.

>In retrospect, I regretted doing so and apologized by e-mail and to Jim

in
>writing.  I made many efforts to smooth over any hurt.  Despite my
earlier
>efforts,  Jim  recently lodged an unsolicited accusation that I publish

>bad science.  I'm not going to tolerate that from anyone unless it
might
>be true.  I have no particularly animus for Jim Hawes, but I suspect it

is
>not symmetrical.  I daily deal with faculty colleagues and students
more
>difficult.  I just don't understand why he e-mails what he e-mails.
>>
>Spread this e-mail around; I'm certain you will!
>
>Cheers,
>Steve
>
>Dr. Steven C. Chamberlain
>Professor and Chairman
>Department of Bioengineering and Neuroscience
>Syracuse University
>Syracuse, NY
.................................................................................

So that's the story, Glen.. Told by e-mail messages. If you are
disgusted with it, I don't blame you. A story full of  animosity,
intrigue, slander, fraud and defamation of character,  all pointing in
one direction, "perceived" by  me as a personal attack. It continues to
this day. How do you and the fine citizens of Spingfield perceive it?

And what is this about suggestions  from three iminent AHS Leaders to
send the "fake " message with obscenities to try to flush out hidden
connections between a few hosta friend discussing various and sundry
subjects of mutual interest? You were one of us, Glen...was there
anything wrong with what we were doing that required Flushing Out? All
of this is so wierd and incredible that one may doubt the varacity of

<<< Continued to next me
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