Re: RE: Blue Plicatas

Those are very interesting seedlings. You can see the washed blue on the 
lav/blue ground.  I remember a long time back - - Linda was asking about 
blue on blue irises, and if any existed.

Chuck does this mean - - it can happen with other colors as well? Like a 
purple-ish-brown on pale brown, or magenta on pale rose pink, etc?

Margie V.
Oro Valley, AZ.
Zone 8/9
IrisLady@comcast.net




----- Original Message ----- 
From: <irischapman@netscape.net>
To: <iris-photos@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 8:27 PM
Subject: [iris-photos] RE: Blue Plicatas


> The two seedlings attached are blue plicatas from a cross of Chubby Cheeks 
> X Lilac Lulu ( a luminata) .The other seedlings were plicatas (of Chubby 
> Cheeks type), glaciatas , luminatas ( a variance on pattern and some 
> looked more like zonals) and these blue  types. I don’t recall there 
>being 
> any plicata -luminatas . The count was small but these four types were 
> fairly evenly distributed.
>
> The SDB are amphidiploids having two sets of 8 genes from the tetraploid 
> Iris pumilla and two sets of 12 from the tetraploid tall bearded iris. 
> These always separate as 8/12 in the gametes, hence the term 
> amphidiploids. The pumilla set of 8 chromosomes have the pla allele 
> (glaciata) and only this allele. Thus all SDB plicatas have two pla genes 
> and two others from the set of pla (glaciata), pl (regular plicata) and 
> plu.(luminata) This gives a total of  6 genotypes for the SDB. An SDB 
> plicata cross acts like a diploid for the plicata genes. I keep hoping 
> that at some point one of the other plicata alleles will cross over to the 
> pumila set of 8 genes. This will be obvious as we will then be getting 
> more of the TB plicata genotypes and the SDB plicata crosses will start 
> acting like a tetraploid rather then a diploid cross. So far no luck. It 
> may just be impossible given the differences in genes between the set of 8 
> and set of 12..
>
> Chubby Cheeks can be shown to be pla pla pla pl based on its offspring. 
> Lilac Lulu being a luminata has pla pla pla plu.    This gives four 
> different plicata genotype offspring which is what was seen in this cross. 
> The glaciata seedlings certainly confirms these genotypes. These blue 
> seedlings should be pla pla pl plu genotype.  Normally I would expect 
> these to be luminatas-plicata.
>
> If this was the only example of this we could assume some sort of error. 
> They have shown up in several other places. Dr. Randolph presented what I 
> have been calling the “Randolph Puzzle”on page 353 in his book 
>“Garden 
> Iris”This puzzle included three generation of breeding with plicatas. The 
> puzzle was how to interpret the results as he had blue flowers from a 
> plicata cross. When he tested crossed one of these blues that he thought 
> should be a plicata with Matterhorn ) a white glaciata) he got results 
> showing that this blue seedling ( actually described as blue with white 
> splotched hafts ) acted as a plicata except that some seedlings were blue. 
> The numbers from this cross were 57 seedlings, 6 blue selfs, 22 luminatas 
> , 18 plicata ( Los Angeles pattern ) and 10 whites. This fits with the 
> blue seedling being a pla pla pl plu genotype as are the two seedlings I 
> have included a photo of, and with the blue seedlings being this same 
> genotype. In this case we are using a tetraploid punnett square. These 
> numbers are a remarkably good fit for the data. I have not found any other 
> fit for this data and I have tried many many different fits over at least 
> four years. Feel free to try.
>
> These same blue plicata genotypes show up from at least one plicata x 
> plicata cross made by the Sass brothers as documented in a letter from 
> Sass to Dr, Randolph. This letter is in the AIS archives library.
>
> Willma Vallette in her book “Iris Culture and Hybridizing fo 
>Everyone”documents 
> on pg 326 five  different solid coloured cultivars giving 100 percent 
> plicata in a cross with a plicata . These cultivars are Great Lakes, Great 
> Day (orange-red self) , Privateer (deep cardinal red) Shannopin, ( a 
> red/white bicolour)  and Red Orchid (dark red IB) . Great Lakes fits in 
> colour with  the other blue plicatas discussed here.. In addition, Great 
> Lakes in a cross with a pumila seems to have produced a white glaciata 
> (suggestive from its offspring but not conclusive) and very well could be 
> the pla pla pl plu genotype.
>
> The best explanation that I have been able to formulate for this is in 
> reference to species of origin. Iris pallida has been strongly documented 
> (Dykes)  as being one of the species that the plicata allele  has 
> originated from. Pallida are light blue/lavender. There are no plicata 
> pallida found in the wild. Thus the plicata gene is probably epistatic ( 
> has one effect in this species but a different effect when combined with 
> another set of genes from another species). The anthocyanin colour in 
> pallida is a lighter tone, more lavender then the anthocyanin seen in 
> other iris species. It is still a form of delphinium but has different 
> sugar and hydroxyl attachments etc. My speculation is that these  blue 
> plicatas have enough of this pallida blue to effect the expression of this 
> genotype.
>
> This is where the posting by Linda of her pallida seedling becomes 
> relevance to the analysis of the MV seedlings.
>
> The other solid coloured plicata cultivars that Vallette documents are 
> much darker. I suspect a similar interaction of plicata with the AE 
> (anthocyanin enhancement) gene (if such should prove to exist). That is 
> one or more plicata genotypes with AE (two or more doses) no longer 
> resemble the classic plicata phenotypes.
>
> 90-190-4 crossed to a plicata is one parent of Eramosa Enigma .This is a 
> washed blue on a lavender-blue ground. Not at all a typical plicata 
> pattern , yet a plicata non the less.
>
> Chuck Chapman
>
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