Re: Clones

Jamie,

You mean there aren't any registered (registered with some governing 
body) daylily that didn't come into being by sex!  I thought one could 
pollinate daylilies and then the plant grown from the seed would not be 
considered a clone.

Darlene


On 12/12/2012 4:19 PM, JamieV. wrote:
>
> Darlene,
>
> being a huge SF fan, clone always has a certain malevolent/romantic 
> quality for me!  Essentially the definition in most SF is correct, 
> just not broad enough. Most of us will tend to see animal clones in a 
> different light than plant clones, although the same rules apply.
>
> Sean and Vic have defined this well.  As you may take from these 
> definitions, taxonomy does not play a defining role.  A taxon is any 
> scientifically described organism. It doesn't need to be a species, 
> just describable.  A clone could be described and considered a taxon.  
> There is no rule governing this. A taxon, however, does not typically 
> represent a clone, although it may.
>
> Clone represents genetic uniqueness.  Which is why, when something is 
> replicated in such a manner that the genome doesn't change (meiosis 
> would be typical), it is considered cloning.  All replicated 
> 'off-spring' are members of the same clone and are genetically 
> identical. This kind of reproduction can be as simply as taking a 
> cutting of a plant or via tissue culture in a laboratory, such as we 
> know with many plants.  Take the mass marketing of orchids.  These are 
> largely clones increased through tissue culture.  Interestingly, 
> mutation is a constant in all kinds of reproduction, which means a 
> tiny percent of 'cloned' individuals will not be identical.  They will 
> be mutants.  Most of these mutants are non-desirable, but some are 
> quite attractive.  The orchid Vuylstekeara Cambria (the name of the 
> registered grex or cross) has been cloned for about 30 years, now, and 
> the original clone, 'Plush' (clonal names are always in parenthesis) 
> has mutated at least twice, producing a beautiful red-mottled version 
> and a striking yellow-orange version, both of which have received 
> their own clonal names.  They are no longer genetically identical to 
> the original 'Plush'. They are mutations or 'sports'.
>
> Now, you mentioned I. virginica alba (alba is not capitalised), which 
> is a taxon.  A described form/variety of the species.  Albas are 
> common in most plants and any given genetically unique one is a 
> clone.  To help seperate them, they may be given clonal names, which 
> will help to ID them, but this is only done when one clone is 
> particulary outstanding and deserving of recognition. Named or 
> un-named, unique genetics would allow them to be referred to as clones.
>
> With roses, where one often refers to a mutation as a sport (other 
> plants as well), it is following an older naming tradition that is not 
> accepted by the scientific community.  None the less, we are talking 
> about potential new clones.  I say potential, as a sport may not be 
> stable and thus not reproduceable.  If they prove stabile and of 
> worth, they will typically be given a clonal name and registered (as 
> with V. Cambria).  With roses, it can become confusing, as the name 
> used to market a rose may not be its clonal name.  This is another story.
>
> Getting back to clone, the only important item to consider is its 
> genetics.  Not its name or taxonomical description (should it even 
> have one).  Every registered Hemerocallis is a clone.  They are 
> genetically unique and reproduced asexually (division).
>
> Strains are another thing altogether.  They refer to a general look 
> that is created from a particular population of parent plants.  
> Typically, strains are sold as seed resulting from the crossing of 
> particular parent.  The offspring are all genetically related, but not 
> identical. Any given one may be considered a clone, but these brothers 
> and sisters are not clones of each other or their parents.
>
>
> OK, confused?
>
> ciao,
>
> jamie
>
> Am 12.12.2012 18:11, schrieb Darlene Moore:
>> Jamie,
>>
>> I think I have this straight but as you say "...as one often thinks a
>> clone is only created through this {tissue culture} method of
>> reproduction..."  I had always thought of "clones" in popular Science
>> Fiction Literature and in terms of mammals.
>> Your definition of "any defined genetic version of a plant" do you mean
>> defined by the taxonomy community?
>>
>> Mark mentions Iris virginica ALBA.  How is that classified and where did
>> it come from?
>> A spontaneous mutation would be called what?  Is a spontaneous mutation
>> in roses called a "sport?"
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Darlene
>>
>>
>> On 12/8/2012 7:33 AM, JamieV. wrote:
>>> Darlene,
>>>
>>> I would add to Mark's definition that a clone is any defined genetic
>>> version of a plant.  That is to say, it must not be a species, but may
>>> be.  Any two plants (species, hybrids, it doesn't matter), when
>>> crossed succesfully, create a generation of offspring.  Any of these
>>> offspring belong to that particular cross, which we refer to as a
>>> grex.  Each individual is a clone, as it is genetically unique. Any
>>> vegetative increase are parts of the same clone.  This would include
>>> tissue culture, for the most part, as well.  Thus we have the word
>>> 'cloning' in use to refer to tissue culture.  A bit of a misnomer, as
>>> one often thinks a clone is only created throught this method of
>>> reproduction, which would be untrue.  Everytime you divide a specific
>>> plant, you are increasing the clone.  Every new growth of a plant is
>>> an increase of this clone.  They are genetically identical (excluding
>>> spontaneous mutation, which can take place).
>>>
>>> In commerce, a named variety, that is vegetatively increased, is a
>>> distinct clone.  We see this with orchids, garden perennials, even
>>> trees and shrubs.  Often, plants are sold under incorrect names, which
>>> confuses the issue, but i think we have all learned to take this in
>>> stride.
>>>
>>> Jamie
>>>
>>> Am 07.12.2012 15:24, schrieb Darlene Moore:
>>>> Mark,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for your sentence "Clones are variations within a species."
>>>> I enjoyed the Historic or Heritage Daylilies site.  Hemerocallis fulva
>>>> is a favorite of mine also.
>>>>
>>>> Your photo of Iris virginica is much more blue than the irises I have.
>>>> About twenty-five years ago I bought these from Louisiana Nursery in
>>>> Opelousas.  I have moved twice but carried them with me. Last winter
>>>> something started eating the rhizomes.  I blamed voles as my cat of 13
>>>> years died so I thought he had kept the critters at bay.  The population
>>>> of irises was reduced by two-thirds, but are now coming back  ---  we
>>>> took in two kittens from the local animal shelter last May.  It will be
>>>> a "scorched earth" policy around the house I'm sure!
>>>>
>>>> I have attached two photos of my Iris virginica.
>>>>
>>>> Darlene
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/5/2012 8:10 PM, Mark A. Cook wrote:
>>>>>> How does one know they are clones? And does it matter to anyone?
>>>>> Darlene,
>>>>>           They are probably variants within the species.   Clones are
>>>>> variations within a species.   While not Irises, there are many clones 
>>>>> of
>>>>> Hemerocallis fulva, which is a Daylily species.  You can see 6 of them 
>>>>> here
>>>>> http://members.tripod.com/bigalligator_1/id9.html
>>>>>
>>>>>         Jumping back to Irises, the first two photos on
>>>>> http://members.tripod.com/bigalligator_1/id20.html    are of two types 
>>>>> of Iris
>>>>> virginica.  The white one is the clone ALBA.   The bluish one, I am not 
>>>>> sure
>>>>> if it is a clone or not.  If anyone knows, please let me know.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark A. Cook
>>>>> bigalligator@bellsouth.net
>>>>> Dunnellon, Florida.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Jamie V.
>>>
>>> _______________________
>>>
>>> Köln (Cologne)
>>> Germany
>>> Zone 8
>>>
>
>
> -- 
> Jamie V.
>
> _______________________
>
> Köln (Cologne)
> Germany
> Zone 8
> 

-- 
Darlene Moore
Carolina Rubber  & Specialties, Inc.
Phone: 336-744-5111    Fax: 336-744-5101
Email: dmoore@carolinarubber.com




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