Re: Re: Tetraploid Iris Pallida?

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My understanding is that autotetraploids in nature usually form from disruptions in cell division of a seedling or growth point, rather than pairing of two unreduced gametes.

--- In i*@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Chapman <irischapman@...> wrote:
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> I agree that a tet pallidia would be a very long shot. But that is probably how natural tets formed.
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> Dalmatica was a identified from an English garden many many years after a plant was brought from a German garden, if my memory serves me right. Foliage is much larger thenà species pallidia. Much longer and wider leaves. And seeds are irregular in shape and size,and of a small number per pod, suggesting that it is not a true species. Seeds from the species pallidia are very consistent in shape and size, and of a large number.
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> Chuck Chapman
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: ChatOWhitehall@...
> To: i*@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:26 am
> Subject: Re: [iris-species] Tetraploid Iris Pallida?
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> à Which tetraploid offspring are you speaking of, please?àà
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> My understanding is toàproduce a natural tetraploid pallida would involve an unreduced egg mating with unreduced pollen grain, which would be a long shot.
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> I don't smell grape when I smell I. pallida. I smell grape whenàI smell 'Alcazar.'
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> Thanks.
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> AMW
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> à
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Ferguson manzano57@...
> To: iris-species i*@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, Jun 2, 2011 5:27 am
> Subject: RE: [iris-species] Tetraploid Iris Pallida?
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> à Also, I don't know anything about a tetraploid I. pallida, but see no reason why such could not exist, and perhaps do exist right under our noses (have to count the chromosomes to be sure, and I suspect not all cultivars have been counted). àUnreduced gametes can occur in pure species just as well as in hybrids (and in fact unreduced gametes in I. pallida are probably why several of it's tetraploid hybrid offspring have been tetraploid instead of diploid or triploid).
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> As for I. pallida 'Dalmatica', it is not very different from several other I. pallida that I have, and I don't have a strong feeling as to whether it was field collected or grown from garden seed. àMy impression was always that it was originally field collected, but I don't remember if that is documented anywhere. à'Odoratissima' is quite similar to it in many characters and can be difficult to tell from it (though it averages a tad smaller and shorter). àThey both have the strong "grape soda" smell that is so characteristic in Iris pallida. àHowever, if memory serves correctly, 'Dalmatica' does not produce pollen (but does set seed easily when pollinated by other I. pallida clones), while 'Odoratissima' produces abundant fertile pollen (and also sets seed rather easily and freely).
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> Dave Ferguson
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> To: i*@yahoogroups.com
> From: irischapman@...
> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 21:29:56 -0400
> Subject: Re: [iris-species] Tetraploid Iris Pallida?
>
> à
> I can't speak to the tertraploid issue, but I'm quite convinced that Dalmatica is not a collectedà plant, but a garden plant, That is very likely a pallida seedling, of some sort. It has tooà many differences from species.
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> Chuck Chapman
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: ChatOWhitehall@...
> To: i*@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, Jun 1, 2011 12:43 pm
> Subject: [iris-species] Tetraploid Iris Pallida?
>
> à à
> Greetings.
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> Has anyone ever run into anything in the literature about what was, or might have been, or what looked like, aànatural tetraploid form of Iris pallida?
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> I haven't, nor has Phil Edinger, nor Mike Lowe,àbutàthere is a reasonàforàmy asking,àso I now bringàthe questionàto you.
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> It's a long story, but I've got a description here of a nineteeth century plant which was by some consideredàthe same as 'Dalmatica', butàa contemporary author whom I consider reliable distinguishes them, soàI am wondering.
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> Phil says the spontaneous appearance of a natural tet seedling would be a very rare thing, indeed.à
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> 'Dalmatica' has been described in the literature--even by the same writer--àboth as a form of I. pallida, and also as a hybrid ofàthatàspecies. Thisàappears to have started with Dykes who, in the course of his career, wasàinconsistent on the matter.
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> So, has anyone ever seen anything anywhere about a natural tet pallida? I think I recall that Sam Norris made a tet pallida but that would have been through artificial means.à
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> Cordially,
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> AMW
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