RE: Tetraploid Iris Pallida? - huh

 

In the blurb that I wrote yesterday, I'm not even quite sure what this means:  "However, if the parent was I. pallida, odds are high that they were indeed hybrids - if they were really tetraploids. "  Sorry about that - it is pretty obvious that if they were I. pallida X something else, of course they were hybrids.  I'm not sure what I was thinking about at the time, but I didn't write what I meant to.  I suppose it was probably supposed to be something like "However, if one parent was I. pallida, and if they were really tetraploids, then the I. pallida contribution probably was an unreduced gamete."


Sometimes I forget to re-read these things, and don't realize that they've come out a little weird.

Dave  

To: iris-species@yahoogroups.com
From: manzano57@msn.com
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 16:43:46 -0600
Subject: RE: [iris-species] Tetraploid Iris Pallida?

 
Yes, it would be a long shot, but out of millions of seedlings of a species over time, it has been documented to happen many times in a wide range of species (but any given species, it is usually rare).  It seems more common in hybrids between species (especially if one of the parents is already tetraploid).  

Many of the earliest tetraploid TB cultivars were supposed to be crosses of I. pallida (diploid) with plants of the I. croatica, amasia, trojana, varbossiana ilk (which are all similar to one another and tetraploid).  The assumption is that an unreduced I. pallida gamete was combined with a tetraploid gamete of one of these other "species".  However, since most of these were pollinated in open fields, or open pollinated, and if the seed parent was one of the tetraploids, there is no proof that the pollen parent was actually I. pallida at all, many of them may have actually had no I. pallida in them at all (????).  However, if the parent was I. pallida, odds are high that they were indeed hybrids - if they were really tetraploids.  If they were triploid (and most such crosses should have been) they would have been largely dead ends that would be very difficult to get fertile offspring from.

As for 'Alcazar'.  If my memory is correct, it smells more like bubble gum or root beer (which is true of several of the early hybrids that involved I. variegata and TB tetraploid species).  I don't remember getting grape from it at all (but I need to smell one again to be sure).

As for the grape smell in I. pallida, it is almost universal, though much stronger in some that in others.  It is very strong in most of the "blue" cultivars and selections, but weak or very weak in the "pink" and white cultivars and selections.  The smell doesn't seem to transfer well into hybrid offspring involving other species, but I certainly would like to see it bread for.  It is also common in old white (near species) TB cultivars, and the white cultivar called 'Kupari' has it strong.  The "blue" cultivar named 'Odorotissima' was named for it.  There used to be a white selection (unnamed) that was very much like 'Dalmatica' in foliage, form, and size (flowers perhaps a bit "fuller" of form) that also had the grape smell strongly present.  It had the bracts tinged brown, so most growers dismissed it as "not I. pallida", but it clearly was.  I have been looking for somebody who still grows it, but I haven't found anyone who has.  I have a slightly smaller white that is very like 'Odoratissima', but it has very little smell to the flowers.

I'm not sure what the perception of wild I. pallida is in this group (and I've never gone and seen wild populations for myself), but it seems to me that I. dalmatica is quite typical for the species.  It looks very like photos of wild stands of the plant that I've seen taken near the coast in Croatia.  It is a tad on the large size, but most of the variety or subspecies "pallida" are supposed to be rather large.  I think that is part of why they were favored for early breeding that lead to our modern TB Iris.  Plants that are much smaller I think derive mostly from more inland populations that are often leaning somewhat toward ssp. cengialti.  At least that is my understanding.  I might change my mind if I ever get to study them in habitat.

Dave Ferguson

To: iris-species@yahoogroups.com
From: ChatOWhitehall@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 08:25:55 -0400
Subject: Re: [iris-species] Tetraploid Iris Pallida?

 

Which tetraploid offspring are you speaking of, please?  
 
My understanding is to produce a natural tetraploid pallida would involve an unreduced egg mating with unreduced pollen grain, which would be a long shot.
 
I don't smell grape when I smell I. pallida. I smell grape when I smell 'Alcazar.'
 
Thanks.
 
AMW
 
 
 


-----Original Message-----
From: David Ferguson <manzano57@msn.com>
To: iris-species <iris-species@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jun 2, 2011 5:27 am
Subject: RE: [iris-species] Tetraploid Iris Pallida?

 
Also, I don't know anything about a tetraploid I. pallida, but see no reason why such could not exist, and perhaps do exist right under our noses (have to count the chromosomes to be sure, and I suspect not all cultivars have been counted).  Unreduced gametes can occur in pure species just as well as in hybrids (and in fact unreduced gametes in I. pallida are probably why several of it's tetraploid hybrid offspring have been tetraploid instead of diploid or triploid).

As for I. pallida 'Dalmatica', it is not very different from several other I. pallida that I have, and I don't have a strong feeling as to whether it was field collected or grown from garden seed.  My impression was always that it was originally field collected, but I don't remember if that is documented anywhere.  'Odoratissima' is quite similar to it in many characters and can be difficult to tell from it (though it averages a tad smaller and shorter).  They both have the strong "grape soda" smell that is so characteristic in Iris pallida.  However, if memory serves correctly, 'Dalmatica' does not produce pollen (but does set seed easily when pollinated by other I. pallida clones), while 'Odoratissima' produces abundant fertile pollen (and also sets seed rather easily and freely).

Dave Ferguson

To: i*@yahoogroups.com
From: i*@aim.com
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 21:29:56 -0400
Subject: Re: [iris-species] Tetraploid Iris Pallida?

 

I can't speak to the tertraploid issue, but I'm quite convinced that Dalmatica is not a collected  plant, but a garden plant, That is very likely a pallida seedling, of some sort. It has too  many differences from species.

Chuck Chapman


-----Original Message-----
From: C*@aol.com
To: i*@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, Jun 1, 2011 12:43 pm
Subject: [iris-species] Tetraploid Iris Pallida?

 
 
Greetings.
 
Has anyone ever run into anything in the literature about what was, or might have been, or what looked like, a natural tetraploid form of Iris pallida?
 
I haven't, nor has Phil Edinger, nor Mike Lowe, but there is a reason for my asking, so I now bring the question to you.
 
It's a long story, but I've got a description here of a nineteeth century plant which was by some considered the same as 'Dalmatica', but a contemporary author whom I consider reliable distinguishes them, so I am wondering.
 
Phil says the spontaneous appearance of a natural tet seedling would be a very rare thing, indeed. 
 
'Dalmatica' has been described in the literature--even by the same writer-- both as a form of I. pallida, and also as a hybrid of that species. This appears to have started with Dykes who, in the course of his career, was inconsistent on the matter.
 
So, has anyone ever seen anything anywhere about a natural tet pallida? I think I recall that Sam Norris made a tet pallida but that would have been through artificial means. 
 
Cordially,
 
AMW
 

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