RE: Tetraploid Iris Pallida? PBF

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A few thoughts.
It would be interesting to compare various "Dalmatica" collections and see how 
many clones in cultivation are going under that name.  It would be fun to have a 
time machine and to be able to look at the plants people were describing so many 
years ago, but alas, we can't.  It is very hard for me to believe that my clone 
bearing the name (which I'm pretty sure is the clone that bears the name 
"officially" by current standards) would produce purple on the leaves under any 
circumstance, but I'll keep watching it.  To my eyes, it IS pure I. pallida, 
through and through,  just a little larger than average.  Many of my other 
clones of "true" I. pallida are just as large, and most are not significantly 
smaller, but growing conditions could have a strong affect on size.  I expect 
very few of them are of proven known wild origin, but they have all of the 
earmarks of being Iris pallida, and I have no reason to doubt that is what they 
are.  They vary from the traditional light bluish purple (basically lavender) to 
white, and there is a group of them that are light reddish shade of 
purple (light magenta or "rose pink" might be names invoked for the color). 
 'Dogrose' and 'Thais' are good examples of this "rosy" coloring.  'Florentina' 
is very dark by I. pallida standards, but otherwise much like 'Dalmatica' and 
'Odoratissima' (and very strongly grapey fragrant).  'Kupari' (another 
supposedly wild collected clone) is basically a white version of 'Odoratissima', 
but has a tinge of brown in the spathes (but then so does 'Odoratissima' - 
sometimes).  Some are plicata (some bluish, and some reddish).  'Swertii' is a 
bit odd, a well-known I. pallida plicata clone with smallish somewhat twisted 
flowers, but it really isn't that different either - and is also reputed to be, 
but not proved to be of wild origin.  All exhibit the traits of "pure" I. 
pallida in morphology, and presumably all are diploid (many have been counted as 
such, but many I suspect have never been counted).   I suspect most were 
originally grown from garden seed, but there is no evidence of other 
identifiable diploid species in their characteristics (except perhaps the rosy 
hue that some exhibit), and it is also possible that many of them were 
originally wild collected.   I'm not going to get into the origin of the plicata 
pattern debate here, but do expect that it can be found in wild I. pallida if 
people go out and look for it.
These garden plants are all fertile, except that 'Dalmatica' has no pollen. 
 There are also the few assorted smaller plants that are in cultivation, but 
more delicate in all proportions and with brownish spathes; most (all? - I can't 
remember) lacking the grape fragrance.   Most of these little ones probably were 
originally field collected (???).
And, not a one of them shows any PBF in when grown in this area.
There is a little group of garden "pallidas" that are supposed to documented 
hybrids of I. pallida with a tetraploid, but morphologically they are I. 
pallida, and their chromosomes should be counted to verify their ploidy.  It 
would be interesting to see if these are diploid, triploid, or tetraploid (I'm 
betting on diploid).  There are several white ones (I don't have names handy, 
and don't remember them).  Also, Sturtevant produced some of these that are 
plicatas, including 'True Charm' (St. Clair X Oriflamme), 'Prince Charming' 
(Oriflamme X St. Clair), and 'True Delight', which I suspect are all siblings 
from one selfed 'St. Claire' seed pod, that I suspect that Sturtevant thought 
was crossed with 'Oriflamme', but that really was not.
By the way I finally found where I had seen two of these "siblings" are 
mentioned as diploids - here: http://www.hips-roots.com/articles/notable-gracesturt.html 
 The claim that they are diploid is not referenced, but it would be interesting 
to find if they actually have been counted as such.  If so, a tetraploid cannot 
be one of the parents.
"There were numerous other popular and/or significant introductions during the 
1920s: ................... plus a number of diploids (Airy Dream, Dream, Anne 
Leslie, Bluet, B.Y. Morrison. Gold Imperial, Taj Mahal, True Charm, and True 
Delight)."
Chuck, I guess I'm curious how you are defining I. pallida, because it sounds 
like you are not allowing any of these garden cultivars in your definition (?). 
  I personally doubt that I. variegata had any influence on most, if any of 
these, but I could of course be wrong.  I doubt that any of these garden plants 
represent multiple generations of selections, but rather chance seedlings that 
are probably first generation (or only a few generations removed from wild) in 
the garden.  In a first or early generation interspecies hybrid, the influence 
from the other species should be much more evident than in these plants.  It 
would be quite plausible that the odd-ball flowers and the larger vigorous 
seedlings (still pure I. pallida) where kept and propagated.   In a few 
generations (or even just one) you could have something noticeably a bit "off" 
and "improved" from the wild plants.   If hybridization is involved (I doubt 
there is much hybrid influence - if any - myself), the various eastern TB 
tetraploid "species" would seem more likely candidates as parents, based on 
morphology (they are more similar to I. pallida), but of course they would not 
produce diploid offspring with I. pallida.   Rather, most would be dead-end 
triploids and a few might be tetraploids.  In my limited experience though, such 
hybrids do not express a grape fragrance, but rather a "rootbeer" or more 
traditional "bearded Iris" fragrance, and usually they have spathes and flowers 
more like the tetraploid parent.  There is a long history of hybridization 
between I. pallida and I. variegata, but all of the documented ones that I know 
(not a huge number, but quite a few) are easily recognized as such (even a few 
generations in), and again the smell is different (often the "Elder Iris" 
smell), and the spathes are again not pallida-like.  There are a few of these 
"sambucina" hybrids that have been called "I. pallida", but clearly they are 
not.
I also strongly suspect that there is a lot of diversity in the wild populations 
of I. pallida, and that only a small fraction of that is documented in western 
botanical and horticultural literature.  After all this is a species of 
moderately wide distribution that grows in a variety of climates and habitats. 
 There is a strong tendency for people growing plants in gardens to expect 
everything under a name to look exactly the same and "conform to type", but 
based on my own experience as a field botanist, I know that rarely is this 
actually the case in the field.  I suspect (???) that there are indeed wild 
populations of I. pallida that are made up of or at least include larger plants, 
and that they are probably somewhere along the eastern Mediterranean coast where 
from they have been collected and distributed for a long time (though not 
necessarily originally from within the Dalmatian region).  I suspect that some 
of the wild plants do exhibit not only "blue" or occasionally white flowers, but 
also on occasion plicata patterns, and "rosy pink" coloration.  The odd-balls 
are usually the plants collectors go for, and so they always appear in a 
disproportionate proportion in gardens and collections.  As a side note, wild 
plants showing PBF wouldn't surprise me too much, but much more so than larger 
wild plants, or flower color and pattern variations would.
And, regarding lack of pollen and seed variation from plant to plant.  These are 
not uncommon in wild populations of many species of wild plants.  As with any 
variation from the norm, they could be clues to an odd ancestry, but most often 
they are just individual variation.  While I don't know if it is so in Iris, the 
presence of "imperfect" pistillate plants that do not produce pollen within 
populations of mostly "perfect" monoecious plants is actually pretty common - 
something I see routinely.  It may be an adaptation that promotes out-crossing 
and reduces somewhat inbreeding within populations.  It may also be an 
adaptation that allows certain individuals to put more energy into seed 
production.  The number of full pods I've gotten over the years on 'Dalmatica' 
does not indicate any degree of reduced fertility that I can see, though I've 
not really been looking for such.
OK, enough of that.
Dave

________________________________
> To: i*@yahoogroups.com
> From: C*@aol.com
> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 08:25:27 -0400
> Subject: Re: [iris-species] Tetraploid Iris Pallida? PBF
>
>
>
> That is correct about PBF being a variable and possibly fugitive
> characteristic. It is a trait more significant in it's presence than in
> its apparent absence.
>
> That said, as I understand it, and as Parkinson noted, I. pallida
> may show PBF; however, the clone 'Dalmatica' is not on the usually
> accepted list of irises with it.
>
> Edinger said at one time he had a whole slew of different 'Dalmatica'
> clones from diverse sources. No one is surprized, right?
>
> AMW