iris@hort.net
- Subject: Fw: Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
- From: &* t* <t*@cs.com>
- Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 09:51:07 +0100
As sharp as a tack Betty!
You are right, i changed the numbering to a more convenient system and the
rebloomer that used to be TT06-01ARE is now B268CR .
It is no longer in the garden, it went to the compost pile because the stalks
had a tendency to fall, and the texture of the flowers was a bit thin, not
worth intro.
But it has been used (i am affraid the display will be ruined on iris-talk
but let's try , i will send it to iris-photo as well where you can see it
properly):
Field1 pod pol seeds given seeds left
D262 - Lenora Pearl - B268CR = Foxy lady X Midsummer's Eve - moi - 35
D436 - B342D = Splash of Raspberry X Pink Attraction - B268CR = Foxy
lady X Midsummer's Eve - betty all 61 - 0
D526 - B268CR = Foxy lady X Midsummer's Eve - Eye Candy - moi - 9
E269 - B200A = Candy Walk X Circus Clown - B268CR = Foxy lady X
Midsummer's Eve - moi - 35
F+++ - Aai = Olympic Challenge X Pink Attraction - B268CR = Foxy lady X
Midsummer's Eve - moi & Jean Luc 10 - 47
F+++ - Aglow Again - B268CR = Foxy lady X Midsummer's Eve - moi - 8
And you got the seeds from the third cross : D436 - B342D = Splash of
Raspberry X Pink Attraction - B268CR = Foxy lady X Midsummer's Eve - betty all
61 - 0
Hope you get something that reblooms and is tough and pretty!
I think i am in zone 7. The Netherlands are supposed to be milder on the map,
but i am close to the German border and it is more continental, and winters
are quite hard.
----- Original Message -----
From: Betty Wilkerson
To: iris@hort.net
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
Was this TB06-01ARE originally? You changed your numbers? What is your
zone?
<< B268C = Foxy lady X Midsummer's Eve:>>
Betty W.
-----Original Message-----
From: loic tasquier <tasquierloic@cs.com>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:43 am
Subject: Re: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
Among all my TB X TB seedlings (that come from the earlier crosses i've
made)
the only one that reblooms is B268C = Foxy lady X Midsummer's Eve:
ttp://www.flickr.com/photos/loic_tasquier/3198810297/
(Midsummer's Eve's pod parent is 'Immortality')
----- Original Message -----
From: Betty Wilkerson
To: iris@hort.net
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
I've not grown Lenora Pearl since I left Alvaton, but do grow the others.
f
this list, only Pink Attraction has bloomed in the summer here. I've made
many crosses with it, but have mixed results. My best cross with it was
hen
I put the pollen onto Presence, PA gave Memphis Miss which is a delightful
pink with excellent branching. No rebloom. Angel Among Us, & Princess
Teaghen come from this line and are very good irises, but they are among
he
select few that have good branching etc. Most of the PA children have had
tragic branching and bud count. None of the Pink Attraction children have
rebloomed here. Mine or others.
<<For pink rebloomers? , or ones with tttt you have Pinkness, Pink
Attraction,
October Splendor, and Lenora Pearl to start>>
October Splendor makes a beautiful clump in bloom and does well here, but
oes
bloom short. I hate to use anything that doesn't contribute to the main
oal.
If you are correct and the fall cycle rebloomers are dominant, I don't
want
o
block summer bloom by using it, yet it is my best bet. Maybe I'll use it
his
spring.
Pinkness has faults I don't want to include. I do have a baby ribbon
pink
seedling from Memphis Miss X Frappe that I'm tempted to rescue for
reeding,
but still no summer rebloom.
I've not bred with SDBs until lately. My collection is small. This
summer
was so hot I lost some of my SDBs despite them having some of my precious
shade. I do need to get Precious Little Pink.
Thanks so much for your patience. Each time we do this, I think of
omething
new to try, or I'm reminded of something I've neglected or forgotten.
Betty W . . . I continue to learn.
-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:33 pm
Subject: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
A plant with tttt will be orange or pink or white with red beard. With one
r
ore T it will be yellow. (ignoring anthocyanin)
Dominant Ameona? is just that. One gene does it all.? Where you get
roblems
s with the Ae (anthocyanin enhancemet gene) which produces AVI
(anthocyanin
ascular intrusions)? which makes the anthocyanin darker. Thus it takes
more
hen one?? of the repression genes to do its effect.
e will make a neglecta from a flower that would otherwise just be an
moena.
For pink rebloomers? , or ones with tttt you have Pinkness, Pink
ttraction,
ctober Splendor, and Lenora Pearl to start. And a few others as well.
recious Little Pink, and IB is also a good start.? For SDB you have Autumn
angerine and Autumn Maple.? And as I found out this year, my own Juiced Up
an also rebloom, in a longer growing season as we had this year.
If you carefully study of? your yellows from tttt crosses, you can start
to
ake educated guess to ones with Ttttt? genetics. And test it out. I think
I
an tell, but it is a very subltle? differernce between a TTtt and a Tttt.
But as you have noted, you don't know what recessives are there until you
have
ried all the crosses.
Chuck Chapman
----Original Message-----
rom: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>
o: iris@hort.net
ent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:50 pm
ubject: Re: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
huck,
How can we tell by looking at a plant if it's Tttt or tttt (just for
nstance.?)
Somewhere back through the years, I've picked up the information that the
only
ay you can really tell what any given iris is (is) by seeing what it
roduces
n it's children?
<<If a plant has? one dominant gene, for example a yellow with three t
enes?(Tttt) is crossed with a tttt? (pink)? flower, half of the offspring
ill have a T gene and will be yellow (assuming all other genes are
ontrolled)>>
lt;<If a plant has two? independent dominant genes,>>
By independent do you mean dominant genes that aren't linked in any way?
Chuck, I've always been told that recessive genes, especially working with
the
angerince factor, meant I would have to bloom a lot of seedlings just to
et
couple of keepers. For instance: Rebloomers with the tangerine factor
re
lmost non existent in my area. I'm left with trying to create what I want
y
utcrossing rebloomers (non-tangerine) with oncers (tangerine factor) and
hen
rossing back in later generations. A tedious job.
For instance, I've crossed Renown onto one of my pink irises. I have a
decent
avender seedling with yellow beard (expected) which I now need to cross
ack
o reblooming pink.
Would it make sense for me to create a good rebloomer that contains all of
the
ecessive colors I want--white with red beard, pink, orange, & red bearded
ellow. (tangerine factors) Then use it to breed back to the various
olors.
oes this have any merit?
Doesn't it take two dominant amoenas to produce a dominant amoena?
Regards,
Betty
----Original Message-----
rom: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
o: iris <iris@hort.net>
ent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 3:55 pm
ubject: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
Two plants that are simple recessive for a trait, such as? the tangerine
ctor, that produces pink. If crossed with each other will produce all pink
owers, as there are no other? genes present. that is the gene for
nscribing? (modifying lycopene into beta-carotene) are not present.
f a plant has? one dominant gene, for example a yellow with three t genes?
ttt) is crossed with a tttt? (pink)? flower, half of the offspring will
ave
T gene and will be yellow (assuming all other genes are controlled)
f a plant has two? independent dominant genes, for example? one dominant
oena? gene and one anthocyanin gene (white base in this case)? and it is
ossed to a white recessive ( not a glaciata) , then half the plants will
et
e anthocyanin, and half will get the amoena. Thus? 1/4 of the seedlings
ill
amoena,? And 1/4 will be solid blue.
hat is because half of the plants that don't receive anthocyanin? will
ceive amoena gene, but will not have any anthocyanin,?
nother way of looking at it is that? half of the plants receiving? amoena
ne? will? not receive the anthocyanin gene.
alf of the plants receiving anthocyanin gene will? also receive amoena
ene.
us the 1/4? of the plants show effect of getting?? a copy? of each
dominant
ne.
ope this clarrifyies? situation.
huck Chapman
----Original Message-----
om: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>
: iris@hort.net
nt: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 3:41 pm
bject: Re: [iris] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
rry, Paul. My examples were clumsy and incorrect. I didn't really
mean
bring in the anthocynan vs carotenoid factors. Bad examples. I
nderstand
at color and pattern are two different sets of genes and work
ndependently.
nda has walked me through this enough times that I think I finally have
it.
uderstand this below.
lt;< Only one Dominant purple gene of the four that can exist is needed to
rple colored flowers. For a Recessive to "show"
mpletely a plant needs all 4 recessive genes (in tetraploids) to be
esent.>>
y lack of clarity comes from classing summer rebloomers as recessive and
all
cle rebloomers as dominant.
hat I'm not understanding is where Chuck states: (in reference to genes
nd
bloom)
If it was a recessive only, then it would be 100%." From the paragraph
low.
gt;<<I did get rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but
th
sult
t;looking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant
nes
t;being involved in the rebloom complex. If it was a recessive only,
then
t;would have been 100%. The only explination that I can se so far is
two
t;dominants, which gives the 25%. And one of these dominants very well
ay
t;the Facilitative Vernalization gene.>>
y thought was that two recessives would produce fewer rebloomers than two
minants, based on my understanding of the terms.
hinking out loud here:
o . . . a recessive must have 4 copies per side to express for a total of
8
pies of the gene (summer reboom). . . . Okay, I see why Chuck says it
ould be 100%! In my experience, this doesn't happen. Must be something
se or some combination.
hile a dominant would only need one on each side, there would only be 2
pies and therefore produce 25%.
think I understand the theory, now. It doesn't correlate with what I get
re. Of course, I've no idea what my percentage of rebloom would be if my
edlings were grown in a more hospitable climate.
hat types of modifiers and triggers do we recognize in rebloom, separate
rom
e genes?
Betty W.
---Original Message-----
om: Paul Archer <pharcher@mindspring.com>
: iris <iris@hort.net>
nt: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:40 pm
bject: Re: [iris] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
es, however just because a gene is Dominant does not mean all four genes
sent in the plant for that character are "purple" genes. Only one
Dominant
ple gene of the four that can exist is needed to be purple colored
flowers.
a Recessive to "show" completely a plant needs all 4 recessive genes (in
raploids) to be present. You only need one Dominant in each parent for
ach
ent to be purple. There are recessives that go along with the Dominants
at
emerge when two recessives from one plant meet the same two recessives
rom
ther plant.
when you cross two purple selfs you might get some roses, some plicatas,
me
tes and glaciatas if the genes for those are there not expressing in the
wo
ple flowers. Depending on the type of purple the colored flower you are
ng you may also get carotenoid amoenas as well.
w a rhetorically supposition... Is purple form anthocyanin only or a
bination with carotenoids as well? An anthocyanin purple self flower
could
e all four genes for carotenoid amoenas and not show it because it
produces
carotenoid in the petals.
so just to be sure you understand this comment is correct....
u have both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.)"
wever, the two genes are independent of each other. So you could get the
ple form one parent and also get all plicatas from each parent (i.e. no
elf
e) and end up with a purple plicata.
----Original Message-----
om: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>
nt: Jan 9, 2011 12:27 PM
: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com, iris@hort.net
bject: [iris] Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
<<If it was a recessive only, then it would have been 100%. The only
plination that I can se so far is two dominants, which gives the
%>>
seem to have some problems (still) understanding the difference in
reeding
th dominants & recessives.
ased on the words--dominant should mean that these genes will prevale over
hers. If you cross two purple selfs, will you not get puple selfs? You
ve both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.)
ecessive--does this not mean that the genes try to disappear? Thus you
ust
ve some on both sides of the cross to have any chance of getting the color
c..? You only get pink irises if pink exists on both sides of the cross.
s to rebloom, I've not seen any cross that comes close to producing 100%
bloom in my climate.
etty W. . . . . also posting this on iris talk.
---Original Message-----
om: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
: iris-photos <iris-photos@yahoogroups.com>
nt: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:45 am
bject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
rost Echo and Negra Modelo are both Fall Cyclic rebloomers. So basically
ything crossed with them will produce some rebloomers. That is because FC
blooming is basically a dominant trait.
would suggest plant vigour and low mature leaf count at bloom time are
the
condary characteristics which enhance rebloom and earlier rebloom on
edlings from a cross with a FC rebloomer. The more I look at this the more
makes sense. And my own crosses are backing this up.
had about 40 rebloom seedlings this year by crosses using these
incipals.
st of these were from FC reblomers crossed to plants with high plant
gour, fast increase, and low leaf count. Some crosses producing 50%
bloomers.
did get rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but with result
oking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant genes
ing involved in the rebloom complex. If it was a recessive only, then it
uld have been 100%. The only explination that I can se so far is two
minants, which gives the 25%. And one of these dominants very well may
be
e Facilitative Vernalization gene.
have tested vigour hypothesei with cross of Forever Blue X Paradigm
hift
the plant wit hhighest vigour and increase that I know) and did get one
ant that rebloomed very late. Suggestive of Facilitative Vernalization, as
ant had been mature for a long time,
hile FC X FC may increase number of reblooming seedlings, it is not
cessarily so. A cross of Lenora Pearl X October splendor (both FC
bloomers here) had about 30 seedlings, So far, on 2 years of mature
plants
006 cross) there has been no rebloom. I would suspect that crossing
ther
these to a high vigour, low mature leaf count , non-rebloomer, that I
uld
t much better results
he Summer Rebloomers and Whenever Rebloomers have a recessive gene in
their
mplex, so will need a coresponding rebloom gene in the other plant. So a
rrier for Whenever gene will not work when crossed to a Summer rebloomer
d vice versa. So right carrier is needed for right plant.
omething like Rain Dance, is not a carrier of anything. But it is a
igorous
ower. So does have one of the secondary characteristics that can be
lpful.
ertainly keep your data. I would be very interested in your results, as
'm
ill sorting out all the factors.
'm starting to suspect that all of the rebloomers have Vernalization
cilitative genes. More research and data is neded.
huck Chapman
----Original Message-----
om: loic tasquier <tasquierloic@cs.com>
: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
nt: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:59 pm
bject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
?
s Chuck, "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, Linda still hesitates to
register
.
en if the texture is a bit thin, there aren't that many excellent
bloomers
the market, and this one is very reliable!
know there is nothing certain to call an iris ' Rebloom Carrier ' but it
is
st a personal way of selecting the irises i think have a potential to give
bloomers if crossed with rebloomers:
ain Dance' does not rebloom but, crossed with 'Frost Echo', has given the
bloomer 'Raindance Returns'.
unk' does not rebloom neither but, crossed with 'Negro Modelo', has given
e rebloomer 'Under My Thumb'.
hope that my B204D = Step Ahead x Forever is a ' Rebloom Carrier ',
aving
orever Blue' as pol parent.
d finally, i also hope 'Spell' is a ' Rebloom Carrier ' with so many
bloomers in his parentage.
have spent months sorting out into two categories the irises that i
hought
d potentioal, and the ones that didn't.
's just a handy tool that helps me sort my crosses like this:
X R : REB X REB
X C : REB X CARRIER
X N : REB X NON CARRIER
I might eventually make a more accurate selection by adding to the REB
iteria E-REB for Early Rebloom and L-REB for Late Rebloom )
now have hundreds of seedlings that have at least one reblooming parent.
call them my 'Rebloom Carriers', and even if they are incompatible, I
still
pe that after several generations, i will finally get some rebloom.
----- Original Message -----
om: Chuck Chapman
: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
nt: Saturday, January 08, 2011 7:03 PM
bject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
'm assumming "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, as I'm unable to find any
formation on it.
at is the rebloom information on it?
f it is a Fall Cyclic rebloomer , then you will get a number of good FC
bloomers from cross with Autumn Jester, and some FC rebloomer s from the
her crosses.
f it is a Summer Rebloomers, then no rebloomers from the other crosses
less
e of them has the correct gene set carried as recessive.
otic, what information do you use to classify something as a "Rebloom
rrier" ?
all Cyclic and Vernalization facilitative rebloomers seem to be a result
f
dominant gene, thus you can't have carriers. Although some plants may have
ese rebloom genes but lack secondary genes to enable rebloom.
or "Summer rebloomers" and "Whenever Rebloomers" there are at least one
t
recessive rebloom genes, so you can have carriers, but two differerent
pes. And each seems to also have at least one set of dominant genes as
ll. I suspect "Whenever" rebloomers to have a recessive gene plus two
minant genes.
huck Chapman
----Original Message-----
om: loic tasquier <tasquierloic@cs.com>
: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
nt: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:48 am
bject: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
Hello Linda,
Here are the crosses i have managed with your reblooming " Cloud Shadow" =
mortality X Celebration Song.
you can see, it is fertile both ways.
hey are not TB X TB crosses, i know, but this mail is, in fact, for the
dian Fans:
will back-cross some of the best babies with their smaller parent.
you are interested in back-crosses with "Cloud Shadows", i can make them
d send you the seeds, but that will take some time!
009cross
B X TB
'Autumn Jester'
BLOOMER
loud Shadow" REBLOOMER
1seeds
009cross
X SDB
Cloud Shadow"
BLOOMER
Punk'
ACE AGE
EBLOOM-
RRIER
8seeds
010cross
B X TB
204D= Step Ahead x Forever Blue
EBLOOM-
RRIER
loud Shadow" REBLOOMER
seeds
010cross
B X TB
Rain Dance'
EBLOOM-
RRIER
"Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER
seeds
010cross
X MTB
Cloud Shadow"
BLOOMER
Spell'
BLOOM-
RRIER
1seeds
f course, the minute i have pictures of the first babies, you will be
first
know!
ll then, we can dream...
oC/c
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