Re: RE: Red-toned rebloomers (was RE: First 08 rebloomers)

Paul Archer wrote:
Actually I don't know or think anybody has done a count on how many yellows, oranges and pinks actually carry the Dominant I gene, but that might be a fair assumption. I realy wouldn't expect many pure whites at all. It would depend on the other parent. I have found many yellows and such are white because they are recessive whites. They tend to have brownish tints as they open or at the hafts after opening. So you just have to be careful and observe. Some are not so obvious even if you are looking for the traits. Breeding behavior will be the conclusion unfortunately for some. 

It is good to know what to look for, thank you.
Since 'Golden Immortal' was mentioned earlier I will use it as an example. In appeartance it looks like it is yellow with a Dominant white gene as it has no anhocyanin pigments or tints. However, I crossed it with 'Matrix' and got lots of seeds and about 70 plants. Absolutely none were pure white or even what I would call Dominant white (with carotenoid), one anthocyanin plicata, a couple carotenoid plicatas all were yellow to some extent with some degree of anthoycyanin except for two which had minimal markings at the hafts. I am concluding it is a recessive white based on it's breeding behavior.
That would make sense, as I think Mike Sutton said a few years ago that they were getting deeper colours, including some reds out of it.
Keep in mind no one has mentioned another few wrinkles in this genetic tapestry. Just because a blue isn't showing any carotenoid in the flower doesn't mean that the carotenoid intensifiers are not still there. And just because a blue doesn't express carotenoid doesn't mean that it doesn't have four copies for lycopene production. The lycopene genes are independent of the carotenoid genes (probably). It simply means if there isn't any carotenoid present in the flower the lycopene genes cannot modify it to look pink.
But if such a blue with four copies of t were crossed to a pink with a dominant white gene, you should be able to get pink seedlings? 

<snip>
In my opinion in reality it doesn't really pay to worry too much about how many copies of a gene a plant has except for the basics as with lycopene, plicatas and carotenoid amoenas which for all intents and purposes have to have four copies to express properly.
I didn't know that the carotenoid amoenas were recessive. Although I guess if they weren't, it would have been easier to get pink amoenas. 


Many times it is the surprises along the way that are the most worthy.
The best seedling I have created to date is one that was a complete surprise - a recessive creamy yellow that popped up when I was trying to breed a space-age neglecta.
My approach has been to create my own seedlings that I know will have genetic backround that I want and work with those to compliment pedigrees of other Registered plants of known backround or potential.
Although I wouldn't have thought of it in those terms, I guess that is to some extent what I am trying to do, too. I am trying to get as many rebloom genes into my breeding lines as possible, while striving for better form, etc. I just feel that now that I am trying to focus on breeding rebloomers in certain colours (pinks, reds, and bicolours), it would be an advantage if I better understood the most likely paths to get those colours.
I find that in terms of understanding colour genetics, I remember the results of crosses better than I do data from books, but I would rather have some (albeit limited) idea of how to get to where I want than waste years figuring it out through trial and error. 

Thanks for all your advice and information, Paul - it has been most helpful.

Ann
South Australia 
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