Re: HYB:Meta-genes-

 Christian: I think you have a logical argument. My specialty is plant taxonomy and plant ecology and so my knowledge of genetics is limited and so much has changed. I can not stress how valuable it is for gardeners to be collecting observations and discussing them. Of course it takes many many observations before any hypothesis can begin to be accepted, but it is important to conjecture so the thoughts can be refined or even disproved.

Individual plants show abilities to adapt to conditions. I do not think we know how this works. We can propose many hypotheses. In the Midwest, Iris recieved from more benign climates on the West Coast do not always do well unless they are aclimatized by letting them dry out before planting. This may have little to do with genetics. But generally once aclimatized they tend to grow well from year to year.

Sudden changes in temperature do not allow the usual protective responses that will occur if the change is gradual. Purple base leaf color is a response to cool temperatures and high light intensities. In climates with long cool springs some Iris will develop totally purple leaves not just at their base whereas the same plant may be totally green in a warmer climate. Even though this trait may show different degrees of expression depending on climate it appears the trait is not lost just by growing plants in warmer climates. But then again perhaps it may vanish in their grandchildren. I do not think this has really been investgated. I would tend to believe it would probably persist as a latent trait.

It is often hard to sort out the effects of conditions on plants without experimentation. I love miniature plants and have grown many alpine plants. Plants growing in this zone are usually miniatures of plants at lower elevations. If you transplant these treasures into a garden at lower elevation Some species grow into full size plants much like their lower elevation relatives, whereas other species retain their dwarf habit. Without doing a trial it is impossible to predict which plants have a genetic makeup that predisposes them to dwarfness and which plants are only dwarfed by the effect of physiology and climate. Both types of species have had many generations in which to adapt, yet only some have adapted genetically.

I certainly don't know whether flat Iris could have developed due to environmental stress but it is an interesting hypothesis.--Bob


----- Original Message -----
From: "christian foster" <flatnflashy@yahoo.com>
To: iris@hort.net
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 4:53:52 PM (GMT-0600) America/Chicago
Subject: Re: [iris] HYB:Meta-genes-

Robert, et al,
 
Please forgive me, I know I'm very self absorbed.  I have to constantly remind
myself that other people do things that take them away from the computer.
 
It was not my intention to say "I already said that." but I suppose I sounded
that way.  I was hoping instead that "meta genes" was a name for my
speculation. 

You (Robert Pries) said that meta genes are produced under environmental
stressors and modify the normal expression of genes.  You did not specify if
these genes are produced in the gametes or if they are part of the RNA as
well.
 
Then, perhaps I am seeing meta genes expressed in my garden in the form of
these irises which bloom polytepal.  This expression, the extra/absent parts,
is often labeled as "frost damage".  When I posted last month, my intention
was to say..."Hey wait a minute, this behavior is too consistent, at least in
these particular plants, to be dismissed as "frost damage.""  I'm saying
there's too much variation in the expression of "frost damage".  Perhaps there
is a distinction between meta-gene, frost activated, polytepal and "frost
damage".  
 
What if these cultivars that bloom polytepal when it frosts are
saying..."Dude, I got your frost tolerant genes right here."  Or, perhaps the
frost activated polytepal signals some other gene complex, like maybe
flatties. <vbg>  No, you don't want the polytepal blooms, (especially
inconsistent ones) but if they are a step toward something else-- you have to
take the step or miss the whole escalator.
 
Of course Robert is right... it would have to be tested to be confirmed.  Does
my thinking even sound sane?
 
Christian
 
 

In a message dated 6/19/2008 8:45:25 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
robertpries@embarqmail.com writes:

Betty;

A year ago I would have said that seed from stressed  plants would not affect
the genes of the seedlings. For many years the concept  of acquired
characteristics was pooh poohed in genetics. If the parents had  good genes
then they
should pass this on regardless of conditions.

Recently there has been discovered what are called meta genes. What  these do
is to attach to the normal genes and modify their effect. These meta  genes
are produced by the parents when undergoing certain environmental  stimuli
and
cane4 be passed on and endow there offspring with some potential  to cope
with
the same type of stress. Therefore if this situation applies in  this case
(which we have yet to know) then the viable seeds may well be better  adapted
then even the parents. Maybe Lysenko the Russian geneticist who  destroyed
Russian agriculture wasn't totally wrong.

Philosophically  this may lead to a few speculations. Perhaps a cross made in
a harsher  environment may produce better adapted progeny then the same cross
made in an  idyllic environment.----Bob Pries ( just getting settled in NC,
already  planting, but still unpacking the furniture).

----- Original Message  -----
From: autmirislvr@aol.com
To: iris@hort.net
Sent: Wednesday,  June 18, 2008 4:25:31 PM (GMT-0600) America/Chicago
Subject: [iris]  HYB:CULT

Several times in the past, we've discussed the health of the  pod parent
as it relates to the seedlings.

Many of us have had  several months of conditions not favorable to
irises.  Freeze,  drought, freeze, freeze, heat.

These plants have been stressed big  time.

Can we expect decent seedlings from the pods we have   (assuming the
parents are good,) or will their poor conditions doom these  babies to
poor genes?

Will the good genes kick in even if the  conditions were poor?

Betty W.
Bridge In Time Irises
KY
Zone  6

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