iris@hort.net
- Subject: Re: HYB: genetics questions
- From: R*@aol.com
- Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 13:57:23 EDT
Some hybridizers do not believe in back crossing for all kinds of reasons. I do backcross if the previous generation has what is missing in the seedlings. There are many genetic factors involved in the size of flower not just a few. Your two parents might have had large flowers for different genetic reasons. Crossing them might have diluted both sets of genetic factors resulting in small flowers. Back crossing to one or both parents might give a fighting chance of recovering size. If you could get a full set of genetic factors for large flowers from both parents, you might have seedlings with very large flowers indeed. Fred Kerr Rainbow Acres In a message dated 6/5/2010 9:51:33 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, iris-owner@hort.net writes: iris DIGEST Saturday, June 5 2010 Volume 01 : Number 1070 In this issue: [iris] re: HYB: genetics questions.... [iris] HYB: genetics questions.... Re: [iris] HYB: genetics questions.... Re: [iris] re: HYB: genetics questions.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 07:48:43 -0500 From: Linda Mann <lmann@lock-net.com> Subject: [iris] re: HYB: genetics questions.... Steve, like Christian, I'm no expert, but also as Christian says, generally, it's not a good idea to try to get back a trait that's lost to the F1, mostly because there are so many other traits that have to line up just right at the same time. My guess is that if you are working with strongly inbred lines where all the other traits are pretty uniform in the parents and seedlings, and there is just one trait you are trying to recapture that got lost, it might be worth it. But I dont' really know. Trying to increase flower size on seedlings is something I've been attempting also, working with some of the really tough rebloom lines here - IMMORTALITY and HARVEST OF MEMORIES. Both are highly prone to giving small flowered seedlings, but not always. If I ever had a small flowered seedling from these lines that also summer bloomed here, I might try to work with it, but my impression so far is that it's a trait that seems to follow along with 'weedy' median type growth. And having grown on a few of them for more than a year just to see if they would rebloom, have decided that's really a waste of space and am tossing them as soon as they bloom now. An added issue with bloom size is that it can be so strongly affected by growing conditions. Some (esp the west coast/Oz) intros often have both stalks and blooms miniaturized here - cute, but not looking like TBs. Seems to result from inadequate moisture/too much heat right before/during bloom season. They look like MTBs - registered at 36" tall, but only about 18 to 20" tall here, with blooms in proportion to the stalk. Which makes it hard to evaluate seedlings. I have used some of these for pollen, and so far, while form of seedling bloom isn't bad, none so far have had what I would call large (i.e. Schreiner sized) blooms. Hope that helps a little. In this group (and from hybridizers), it's been a lot easier to find out about inheritance of pigments and their patterns than about inheritance of other traits like stalk height, bloom size, disease resistance. Let me know if you find out more specific information. Or if you have room to do some experiments, let us know what you learn! ;-) Linda Mann east TN USA zone 7 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 10:45:05 -0700 (PDT) From: mahlberg s <s_j_mahlberg@yahoo.com> Subject: [iris] HYB: genetics questions.... Hello all, I have been dabbling for a few years now with iris hybridizing. I am gathering a better understanding of some of the things that are happening genetically. My question is more for the more seasoned hybridizers who have done many different crosses. What I am wondering is, before making more crosses with potentially 'compost flowers', how much of the grandparents genetic material will be passed to f2 if f1 is inferior to the parents. Will I just keep watering down the genetic material? example, I cross two large flowered TBs, ''a with b'' and end up with ''c'' a smaller flowered and differently colored flower which is definitely not a show stopper, is it potentially worth backcrossing or outcrossing ''f1 c'' to try and grab any of the granparents genes in f2 seedlings? Or is it a compost flower and just continue to work with different seedlings that show improvements over the parents. I am not certain if grandparents coloration would show up in f2 or if the larger flower size of grandparents might show back up in next generation if I use f1 in a cross, even though f1 is showing a smaller flower. right now I am working on flower size in some of my seedlings, but need a bit more insight. thanks! Steve M. zone 4b Northeastern MN ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 16:03:55 -0700 (PDT) From: christian foster <flatnflashy@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [iris] HYB: genetics questions.... Well, I'm not a seasoned hybridizer, but... In general it is considered a waste of energy to work with breeding stock that does not display the traits you are trying to breed into the offspring. ________________________________ From: mahlberg s <s_j_mahlberg@yahoo.com> To: iris@hort.net Sent: Fri, June 4, 2010 1:45:05 PM Subject: [iris] HYB: genetics questions.... Hello all, I have been dabbling for a few years now with iris hybridizing. I am gathering a better understanding of some of the things that are happening genetically. My question is more for the more seasoned hybridizers who have done many different crosses. What I am wondering is, before making more crosses with potentially 'compost flowers', how much of the grandparents genetic material will be passed to f2 if f1 is inferior to the parents. Will I just keep watering down the genetic material? example, I cross two large flowered TBs, ''a with b'' and end up with ''c'' a smaller flowered and differently colored flower which is definitely not a show stopper, is it potentially worth backcrossing or outcrossing ''f1 c'' to try and grab any of the granparents genes in f2 seedlings? Or is it a compost flower and just continue to work with different seedlings that show improvements over the parents. I am not certain if grandparents coloration would show up in f2 or if the larger flower size of grandparents might show back up in next generation if I use f1 in a cross, even though f1 is showing a smaller flower. right now I am working on flower size in some of my seedlings, but need a bit more insight. thanks! Steve M. zone 4b Northeastern MN ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 15:03:12 +0200 From: "loic tasquier" <tasquierloic@cs.com> Subject: Re: [iris] re: HYB: genetics questions.... Hello Linda, what a same we can't exchange our seedlings: i toss the big flowered ones and you toss the small flowered ones! i would especially love to get the ones that rebloom in the summer! It would save me a lot of work! Loic ----- Original Message ----- From: Linda Mann To: iris@hort.net Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 2:48 PM Subject: [iris] re: HYB: genetics questions.... Steve, like Christian, I'm no expert, but also as Christian says, generally, it's not a good idea to try to get back a trait that's lost to the F1, mostly because there are so many other traits that have to line up just right at the same time. My guess is that if you are working with strongly inbred lines where all the other traits are pretty uniform in the parents and seedlings, and there is just one trait you are trying to recapture that got lost, it might be worth it. But I dont' really know. Trying to increase flower size on seedlings is something I've been attempting also, working with some of the really tough rebloom lines here - IMMORTALITY and HARVEST OF MEMORIES. Both are highly prone to giving small flowered seedlings, but not always. If I ever had a small flowered seedling from these lines that also summer bloomed here, I might try to work with it, but my impression so far is that it's a trait that seems to follow along with 'weedy' median type growth. And having grown on a few of them for more than a year just to see if they would rebloom, have decided that's really a waste of space and am tossing them as soon as they bloom now. An added issue with bloom size is that it can be so strongly affected by growing conditions. Some (esp the west coast/Oz) intros often have both stalks and blooms miniaturized here - cute, but not looking like TBs. Seems to result from inadequate moisture/too much heat right before/during bloom season. They look like MTBs - registered at 36" tall, but only about 18 to 20" tall here, with blooms in proportion to the stalk. Which makes it hard to evaluate seedlings. I have used some of these for pollen, and so far, while form of seedling bloom isn't bad, none so far have had what I would call large (i.e. Schreiner sized) blooms. Hope that helps a little. In this group (and from hybridizers), it's been a lot easier to find out about inheritance of pigments and their patterns than about inheritance of other traits like stalk height, bloom size, disease resistance. Let me know if you find out more specific information. Or if you have room to do some experiments, let us know what you learn! ;-) Linda Mann east TN USA zone 7 ------------------------------ End of iris DIGEST V1 #1070 *************************** --------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the message text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS-DIGEST --------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the message text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS
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