iris@hort.net
- Subject: Re: Test Gardens
- From: P* A* <p*@mindspring.com>
- Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:16:27 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Yes, something similar, but likely without the awards system unless someone would want to handle that part of it. If the Society wanted to get involved, help organize it, critique, ect. ... it is welcome to. -----Original Message----- >From: Impressive Irises <colleen@impressiveirises.com.au> >Sent: Jun 22, 2010 4:57 PM >To: iris@hort.net >Subject: Re: [iris] Test Gardens > >Hi > >Perhaps it time to say how the Australian trial gardens work. >Each Society has it's own trial garden and it's location is decided by >the society. Here the seedling irises (any sort) are grown. In the South >Australian gardens each local breeder can enter up to 5 seedlings. >During bloom season they are judged weekly by at least two of a panel >of judges. This means the early and late irises get equal notice. The >HM, HC and AM are awarded by each society. Then any AM winners ,plus the >top iris from each garden(which may not have won a AM) are sent out to >all the Trial Gardens over the whole country, here in Australia that >means just 5 gardens. By this stage they are registered cultivars and >are judged over 3 years for the Dykes Medal. >Not all registered cultivars have been through this process but for us >smaller breeders it is a very good way to have our seedlings assessed by >others before release. >The Australian trial gardens are run by the New South Wales, Victorian, >South Australian, Western Australia and Inland iris societies, and so >cover a wide range of soils and climates. > >Colleen > >Paul Archer wrote: >> I agree totally and the AIS doesn't really need to be involved. They >handlethe registration an awards and the Bulletin. They aren't in mine or >others gardens are they? They'd be involved maybe to report our results >yearly in the Bulletin with pretty pictures. Kelly is always looking for >articles. The resistance in dealing with them to actually achieve certain >goals make my efforts sometimes a waste of my time. Fortunatley I don't give >up that easily which hopefully by next year will be evident with this Trial >Garden project and another one involving the Online Registration Database (and >separate form the new wiki site) I'm working on independently without their >prior approval <wink>. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: Robert Pries <robertpries@embarqmail.com> >>> Sent: Jun 22, 2010 8:50 AM >>> To: iris@hort.net >>> Subject: Re: [iris] Test Gardens >>> >>> Paul; I think your thoughts on test gardens are good ones. As with anything >that can prove useful there are many problems to overcome. And perhaps it >would be best not to discourage you with a list. AIS has had a long history of >test gardens. Often they created so much controversy they were eventually >disbanded and many remember the problems and hope to avoid them again. But it >should not be ignored that they also gave us an enormous legacy of >information. Cornell Plantations was a test garden and the venerable Austin >Sands provided a tremendous archive of information about the irises of his >time. >>> Originally many of the test gardens were first organized to sort out what >irises were growing under what names and correcting the nomenclature. But even >from the beginning, judges would visit and evaluate irises. Although there >still are public test gardens around the country, In the recent past AIS has >pretty much divorced itself from the concept. But one must always remember >that the society is not its officers, and those officers continually change. >It is really about what its members do. The society is only a network and how >individuals use that network is what makes the iris society. >>> The issue of test gardens will never die because it has some intrinsic >value. Its problem is mostly execution. Many of you know that I am very >interested in preservation of cultivars and have been trying to establish a >relationship with the American Association of Public Gardens such that AIS >could participate in their system of National Collections, both to create some >in members gardens and collections in the botanical gardens and arboretums. As >part of this effort I proposed to the board we have an Office of National >Collections and test gardens. Although they did not understand what an office >would be in our structure they did approve this Spring a committee. Note this >did also include test gardens. Whether some like them or not, test gardens >exist, and if we have input we can perhaps help them avoid some problems. Of >course all public displays are of strong PR value for the Iris society, >negatively or positively, depending on how the plants are grown. >>> Of course what Paul has been talking about is more personal than a public >garden. But believe it or not AIS still has robins flying. I could see where >the efforts of a network of individuals could provide some real benefits very >much like a robin. A standardized form, that could be easily filled out, might >aid individuals in separate parts of the country to remember to comment on the >same things. Even four individuals scattered across the country could give a >useful clue as to the performance of an iris nationwide. If someone would like >to volunteer to be a part of the Gardens-Committee they might work on >coordination of such a project. Sadly I have so much on my plate at present >that my garden is suffering, along with my wife, both of whom deserve more >attention. I am not sure how much effort I have in me for another project, let >alone guesting any irises myself. But I am sure there are others who would do >this. I would like to, but if I abused the plants it would be unfai! >>> >> r! >> >>> to the hybridizer and no real test. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Paul Archer" <pharcher@mindspring.com> >>> To: iris@hort.net >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 12:32:29 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern >>> Subject: Re: [iris] iris DIGEST V1 #1084 >>> >>> I know this is mostly falling on deaf ears at this point so I guess I'm >really just stirring the pot (I like to do that!) >>> >>> I wasn't suggesting the AIS or anyone else take away your right to Register >a variety or not. Where did I say that? Would I want that? No. I am an >American, but guess what ...I'm even more loyal to my beloved Irises! Give me >your tiered, your poorly branched, huddled masses yearning to breathe free. >>> >>> So, let's say being trialed in a test garden not be a part of Registration. >And that is fine if you don't want your seedlings to be judged by others. Then >fine don't participate (even though they will be anyway whether you want them >to or not simply by releasing them and through time and in commerce). >However, there could still be a system of accreditation for varieties. Yes, I >know the Awards system as it stands is intended for that but apprently it's >not working well enough to suffice, otherwise we wouldn't all be here in this >chat forum complaning of all the problems we have growing them. Yes, that >shakes things up a quite a bit doesn't it! Oh, don't I know how the majority >of this group doesn't like change. >>> >>> Besides even if a seedlings was trialed and did poorly it could still be >Registered by the Hybridizer. We'd simply have a better idea of it's >tendencies and abilities before making that decision to do so. >>> >>> There is also absolutely nothing stopping others on other continents or >countries setting their own system of evaluation. To imply that they have to >send all of their plants over here would be absurd. >>> >>> The test gardens would be run by volunteers who already are more than happy >to add yet another iris to their happy family. This is for growability >studies, not necessarily Awards judging, because technically the seedling is >not Registered yet so is not up for an Award. It is strictly a seedling >evaluation trial for those that we might be intersted in Registering. I know I >have some that might do even better somehwere else and push me to actually >Register it. >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>>> From: M Bersillon <auxiris5@orange.fr> >>>> Sent: Jun 21, 2010 9:32 AM >>>> To: iris@hort.net >>>> Subject: Re: [iris] iris DIGEST V1 #1084 >>>> >>>> Hello. . . just a "lurker" most of the time, not a regular contributor, >but I feel that I must respond to Paul's remark about trial gardens and the >implication of using such things (sorry, I'm only assuming that this is what >you mean, Paul) as prerequisites to the official registration of iris >cultivars with the American Iris Society. There were remarks about such a >thing in one of the AIS Bulletins a few years back and I feel that I must say >once again that, as a hybridizer, I do not agree with the idea of taking the >decision to register irises out of the hands of the people who create them. >This is an open door to less, not more, responsible behaviour on the part of >hybridizers (as in: "Oh, well if someone else is going to decide for me >anyway, then I don't have to bother to be so exacting") and there are many >problems with requiring the passage of plants through a test garden in order >to be granted access to registration. . . >>>> >>>> First of all, how many of us would honestly be willing to accept someone >else's decision of "not registeration-worthy" regarding an iris that we truly >believe is a good plant? This goes way beyond asking other hybridizers or >knowledgeable friends what they think of the plant and then making up your own >mind! >>>> >>>> Then there's the whole practical business about where would the test >gardens be and who would run them---not to mention with what money. >>>> >>>> Finally, please spare a thought for those of us hybridizing iris outside >North America! Since the AIS holds the register for the entire planet, would >it then be fair to oblige "foreign originated" irises to jump through this >extra hoop of trial gardens---which I'm imagining would be in the USA---in >order just to have access to the registration process? It's already difficult >enough for foreign originated plants to have access to the AIS awards system >through exclusive introduction in North America for their first year on the >market. >>>> >>>> It seems to me that even though some inferior plants may find their way >onto the market, they won't last long there if their performance is poor. >Also, remember that inbreeding, which is often the price one must pay for >finding something new, can also produce plants that aren't as strong and it >may take time to stabilise new patterns or colour combinations so that plant >quality is also present. >>>> >>>> My two cents worth! >>>> >>>> Michele Bersillon >>>> >>>> Le 21 juin 2010 ` 00:42, iris DIGEST a icrit : >>>> >>>> >>>>> iris DIGEST Sunday, June 20 2010 Volume 01 : Number >1084 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In this issue: >>>>> >>>>> Re: [iris]:HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings) >>>>> Re: [iris]:HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings) >>>>> [iris] Re: Limbo Seedlings >>>>> RE: [iris] Re: Limbo Seedlings >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 18:42:04 -0400 (EDT) >>>>> From: Paul Archer <pharcher@mindspring.com> >>>>> Subject: Re: [iris]:HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings) >>>>> >>>>> I was speaking of proportion the way it relates to the overall look of >the plant. Large or even medium sized flowers on short stalks are not that >appealing. Well, maybe dainty ones stuck down there aren't much either. Some >of the smaller ones can have short and wide foliage and have tall enough >stalks to appreciate the flowers they hold up out of the foliage. The stalks >may not fit the AIS Judges Handbook of standards for whichever class they fit >into, but they should look nice just the same. Dainty flowers sticking way up >in the air as high as your shoulder (I'm 6'3) are not that appealing either, >intriguing yes, but worth the garden space? I had one of those, and no, it >isn't. We're not even talking about flower form, color, haftiness at this >point. This is far more general. >>>>> >>>>> I had a nice TB seedling once that had the grassiest foliage I had ever >seen (about 1/2 inch wide top to bottom) and it its stalk was thin and short >and strong. Darn it the flower was a neat carotenoid plicata almost the size >of Silverado. I kept it for a while but in the end it simply passed that >short grassiness on to its children and the whole lot and seedling got >tossed. >>>>> >>>>> Yes, show bench type stalks are a goal in seedlings, but more important >is the how the plant perfoms as a whole. It may have show bench stalks but >that lower branch may not even show out of the leaves in the garden. >>>>> >>>>> If a plant touted as an improvement over its parent or grandparent that >consistently dies over a two (or three) year period was obviosly a plant that >was an improvement ... for the person who grew it. It simply may not have >been tried in other regions before being Registered and Introduced. The >trouble with Registration and Introduction is that most times they happen the >same year. Why? I think we know why. But this is another topic that has been >discussed before. >>>>> >>>>> A rethink on how Irises are Registered might be in order. Just simply >knowing the parentage is enough (many don't even have that) and growing enough >stock to sell probably should not be the only reasons to Register one. And we >are back to the topic of Trial Gardens.... and actually using them for that >purpose. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - -----Original Message----- >>>>> >>>>>> From: autmirislvr@aol.com >>>>>> Sent: Jun 20, 2010 4:10 PM >>>>>> To: iris@hort.net >>>>>> Subject: Re: [iris]:HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings) >>>>>> >>>>>> Points of discussion: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hybidizers DO share both plants and pollen long before a new >breakthrough hits >>>>>> the market. That is how children of said "wonder" hit the market so >soon. >>>>>> Some of the plants used in breeding are never introduced--(sibling of >blah, >>>>>> blah) >>>>>> >>>>>> Length of bloom season can be achieved in several ways. Substance is >great. >>>>>> It's also possible to have stalks, within a clump, that initiate one at >a time >>>>>> throughout the season, and the blooms on the stalk may also open one or >two >>>>>> blooms at a time. It's possible for a mature iris clump to have many >days, or >>>>>> possibly many weeks of bloom. A good show bench iris may not be a good >garden >>>>>> iris based on the timing of individual blooms. >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, rebloom is another method of extending bloom season! One of >my >>>>>> favorites, but I'll take them all. >>>>>> >>>>>> Branching? Is this garden branching or show bench branching? A show >branch >>>>>> must only shine on one day, whereas the garden variety must hold it's >own >>>>>> against others for a much longer time period. This is especially true >of tall >>>>>> bearded irises. >>>>>> >>>>>> I find myself looking for show bench branching on all of my seedlings >although >>>>>> I know that my rebloomers will rarely make a show bench based on the >timing of >>>>>> most iris shows. I'd be better off looking for branching that shows >well in >>>>>> the garden, but old habits are hard to break. >>>>>> >>>>>> During my formative years as an iris hybridizer, I grew a beautiful >Blue(ish) >>>>>> iris that was tall with a consistent branching problem. It always grew >the >>>>>> middle branch at a quarter turn on the stalk rather than opposite sides >of the >>>>>> branch! It was a gorgeous bloom but most felt it should never have >been >>>>>> introduced, based on the branching deficiency. Yet, this iris would get >a >>>>>> blue ribbon on the bench because it grew as introduced. >>>>>> >>>>>> Paul when you speak of proportion are you refering to both stalk and >bloom >>>>>> proportion and/or balance? >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe the main difference of opinions lies in bloom preference? Open >>>>>> standards or domed standards? Heavy haft marks or none at all? Pastel >colors >>>>>> or heavily saturated dark colors? Ruffles, lace or tailored edges? >Plicatas, >>>>>> selfs, bitones, etc.? I love variegatas! >>>>>> >>>>>> If I buy an iris that is touted as an improvement and it dies for me >within 2 >>>>>> years, is it truly an improvement? Or should it be considered >inferior? >>>>>> >>>>>> Which irises bred from Edith Wolford were truly an improvement over EW? >>>>>> Several may have been considered a success by their breeder/creator, >depending >>>>>> on their goals! Use the same criteria with any of the other irises >heavily >>>>>> used in breeding. >>>>>> >>>>>> For an Edith Wolford cross to be a success for me it would have to be as >is, >>>>>> but healthy here in KY. It has height, color, branching (most of the >time) >>>>>> and all other qualities I like! Unfortunately, it doesn't live here. >Except >>>>>> in my huge pot, of course. It lives, but still doesn't bloom every >year. It >>>>>> is still in some of my seedlings. It passes on the bitone effect, >height and >>>>>> good branching in plants that live. Most seedlings also have triple >>>>>> terminals. Just because an iris bombs here doesn't mean it's children >will >>>>>> do the same. >>>>>> >>>>>> Many of the Romantic Evening children appeal to me more than RE, but who >can >>>>>> buy all 93 of them? (I also have children of RE, but it is long gone) >>>>>> >>>>>> There are many irises introduced each year that don't appeal to me, yet, >I'm >>>>>> sure most furthered some goal of the hybridizer. It's quite possible >that I'd >>>>>> say "ugh" to your (generic your) favorite iris, but that doesn't make >them >>>>>> inferior. >>>>>> >>>>>> How about that beautiful pink iris that looks just like two dozen >(hundred) >>>>>> other beautiful pink irises? Was it folly to introduce it? Or did it >exhibit >>>>>> something special or new to the hybridizer? >>>>>> >>>>>> Just saying that much of what we see is simply "the eye of the >beholder." >>>>>> This is one of the reasons for National Display Gardens and iris >photos! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Betty Wilkerson . . . thanks for your time. >>>>>> KY Zone 6 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ---Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Paul Archer <pharcher@mindspring.com> >>>>>> To: iris@hort.net >>>>>> Sent: Sun, Jun 20, 2010 12:44 pm >>>>>> Subject: Re: [iris]:HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I personally select for plants with the following (since I breed TB's, >MTB's, >>>>>> ntermediates and Arilbreds)... >>>>>> First off, each cross has a particular goal for a flower characteristic. >If a >>>>>> lower meets that goal or something unique shows up then the following >is >>>>>> valuated... >>>>>> -Flowers that have good bloom substance (more then two days of life). I >would >>>>>> lways like 3 days but that is >>>>>> slim pickin's. >>>>>> Upright foliage >>>>>> Disease resistance (as well as blue-green foliage) >>>>>> Stalks that do not need staking >>>>>> Good branching (not as easy as it might seem) >>>>>> At least two increases to bloom size >>>>>> Proper proportion (regardless of class). >>>>>> Bud count of at least 8 with a goal of triple sockets and/or lower >branches >>>>>> Rebloom if possible >>>>>> >>>>>> irst year seedlings are evaluated for color and general growth. The >second >>>>>> ear is make it or break it unless foul weather has played a role in >general. >>>>>> f any one or two of those qualities is missing in a seedlng (but the >flower >>>>>> ust be exceptional) it is selected as breeding stock. Any more than >two >>>>>> faults >>>>>> s usually tossed. I do have one plant that is an exception to that rule >and I >>>>>> ill never, ever distribute it. Once I get what I want from it it will >get >>>>>> ossed. >>>>>> Arilbreds are something else altogether and have their own set of >issues, but >>>>>> imilarly judged. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: autmirislvr@aol.com >>>>>> Sent: Jun 20, 2010 12:14 PM >>>>>> To: iris@hort.net >>>>>> Subject: [iris]:HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings) >>>>>> >>>>>> This is a side issue to the Limbo Seedling thread. >>>>>> >>>>>> So many things to consider. >>>>>> >>>>>> <<second class seedlings>> >>>>>> >>>>>> An improvement might be a taller specimen, more branches, longer bloom >>>>>> season, >>>>>> deeper colors, etc..What are your goals and how do they mesh with what >the >>>>>> rest of us like? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Would some of the hybridizers on this list please give us some idea of >what >>>>>> they consider an advancement? What are your goals? What are you trying >to >>>>>> improve in the irises you breed? Specifically, what would it take to >be a >>>>>> "first class" seedling in your garden? >>>>>> >>>>>> Each hybridizer has their own goals. To an extent, an advancement or >>>>>> "better" >>>>>> iris is in the eye of the beholder. >>>>>> >>>>>> Feed Back, please! >>>>>> >>>>>> Betty Wilkerson . . . extremely fussy about colors and patterns. >>>>>> Bridge In Time Irises >>>>>> KY Zone 6 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Dana Brown <ddbro@sbcglobal.net> >>>>>> To: iris@hort.net >>>>>> Sent: Sun, Jun 20, 2010 8:56 am >>>>>> Subject: RE: [iris] Re: Limbo Seedlings >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Paul, >>>>>> Just imagine how much worse it would be if all the seconds and culls >>>>>> ere floating around out there as well. If your "limbo" seedlings are >>>>>> etter than so many of the current intros, then kudos to you for being a >>>>>> iscerning hybridizer/irisarian!! Why would you want to lower your >>>>>> tandards at this point? >>>>>> As far as all the tracking and record keeping....well, given the >>>>>> umber of misnamed or no name iris already out there I guess we already >know >>>>>> hat not everyone keeps good records. >>>>>> Bottom line for me as a hybridizer, no, I don't want to send my >>>>>> econd class seedlings out in public where they might get released into >>>>>> eneral population. >>>>>> Dana >>>>>> Dana D. Brown >>>>>> IS, ASI, MIS, RIS, SPIS, TBIS >>>>>> alevil Iris Gardens & Kennels >>>>>> ww.malevil-iris.com >>>>>> ubbock, TX 79403 >>>>>> one 7 USDA, Zone 10 Sunset >>>>>> dbro@sbcglobal.net >>>>>> Home of: >>>>>> errimac's Amarula CGC TDI >>>>>> H. Merrimac the Agean CD, RA, CGC, TDI >>>>>> >>>>>> ----Original Message----- >>>>>> rom: owner-iris@hort.net [o*@hort.net] On Behalf Of Paul >>>>>> rcher >>>>>> ent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 6:33 PM >>>>>> o: Iris chat forum >>>>>> ubject: [iris] Re: Limbo Seedlings >>>>>> I agree with that as well. However, considering the sheer amount of >>>>>> egistered plants I have paid good money for and turned out to be >complete >>>>>> rap for various reasons and most of my "limbo" seedlings surpass the >ones I >>>>>> ought, and by that standard maybe I should be Registering a whole lot >more. >>>>>> lso some Registered plants make very poor parents once I get seeds from >>>>>> hem, yet they were Registered by the Hybridizer anyway. The assumption >>>>>> hat a Registered plant is a worthy parent is mute. But sorry to burst >your >>>>>> ubble but the danger of releasing poor plant has already been surpassed >>>>>> umerous times and is now and endemic problem, yet may great cultivars >are >>>>>> oming from these very plants through selection efforts. The difference >is >>>>>> he Hybridizer standard of which mine is very high. >>>>>> It could also be said that those "limbo" seedlings that would be >released >>>>>> nto this proposed program would need to be kept track of by the >purchaser >>>>>> nd Hybridizer and not released as a cultivar for the sheer sake of >>>>>> ropagation purposes unless it has been evaluated by numerous people, >>>>>> eedback reported on, and the decision made by the Hybridizer to remove >it >>>>>> rom "limbo" list and actually Registered. Yes, that takes some work, >but >>>>>> hat prevents the seedling being distributed under a false name or >confusion >>>>>> nd is certainly no worse than distributing the Registered ones that I >would >>>>>> ust as soon toss the second or third year I've seen them bloom. >>>>>> hat is likely the root cause of much of the problem we have occuring >today. >>>>>> >>>>>> Original message:------- >>>>>> >>>>>> feel that there is danger in releasing to the public seedlings that >though >>>>>> beautiful are not quite worthy of registration and introduction. >>>>>> irst: One goal as hybridizers should be to improve irises. If we >allow >>>>>> ven slightly inferior cultivars to be diseminated-among the public, we >are >>>>>> ot being faithful to that goal. Second: These nameless seedlings are >>>>>> ertain to become confused with look alike named varieties to the >detriment >>>>>> f the named varieties and to the people who buy them misnamed. >>>>>> know we all have favorite seedlings like this. I always say, "I'll >keep >>>>>> t until I need the room for something better". When I am excited about >the >>>>>> better one, I find it doesn't hurt to let the lesser one go. >>>>>> rancelle Edwards >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> o sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the >>>>>> essage text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> o sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the >>>>>> essage text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS >>>>>> >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> o sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the >>>>>> essage text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:46:03 -0400 >>>>> From: "J. Griffin Crump" <jgcrump@cox.net> >>>>> Subject: Re: [iris]:HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings) >>>>> >>>>> Betty writes: >>>>> "For an Edith Wolford cross to be a success for me it would have to be as >>>>> is, >>>>> but healthy here in KY. It has height, color, branching (most of the >time) >>>>> and all other qualities I like! Unfortunately, it doesn't live here. >>>>> Except >>>>> in my huge pot, of course. It lives, but still doesn't bloom every year. >>>>> It >>>>> is still in some of my seedlings. It passes on the bitone effect, height >>>>> and >>>>> good branching in plants that live. Most seedlings also have triple >>>>> terminals. Just because an iris bombs here doesn't mean it's children >will >>>>> do the same. >>>>> >>>>> Many of the Romantic Evening children appeal to me more than RE, but who >can >>>>> buy all 93 of them? (I also have children of RE, but it is long gone)" >>>>> >>>>> We've discussed the theme of weak-growing irises many times before, but >for >>>>> the benefit of our newer members, I'll mention that I have never been >able >>>>> to keep Edith Wolford alive long enough here to make a cross, but its >>>>> progeny, Jurassic Park, grows well and has given me nice seedlings. >>>>> Similarly, Best Bet has never lasted more than 2 years here, but has >given >>>>> me some introducers. Finally, Romantic Evening just struggles along >here, >>>>> but has given me some of my best introductions and breeders. So, as >Betty >>>>> says, there's more to consider than just how well an introduced plant >grows >>>>> in a particular place. -- Griff >>>>> >>>>> Griffin's Den >>>>> http://www.pilmore.com/griffinsden/default.html >>>>> Zone 7 along the tidal Potomac near Mount Vernon, in Virginia >>>>> >>>>> - ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: <autmirislvr@aol.com> >>>>> To: <iris@hort.net> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 4:10 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [iris]:HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Points of discussion: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hybidizers DO share both plants and pollen long before a new >breakthrough >>>>>> hits >>>>>> the market. That is how children of said "wonder" hit the market so >soon. >>>>>> Some of the plants used in breeding are never introduced--(sibling of >>>>>> blah, >>>>>> blah) >>>>>> >>>>>> Length of bloom season can be achieved in several ways. Substance is >>>>>> great. >>>>>> It's also possible to have stalks, within a clump, that initiate one at >a >>>>>> time >>>>>> throughout the season, and the blooms on the stalk may also open one or >>>>>> two >>>>>> blooms at a time. It's possible for a mature iris clump to have many >>>>>> days, or >>>>>> possibly many weeks of bloom. A good show bench iris may not be a good >>>>>> garden >>>>>> iris based on the timing of individual blooms. >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, rebloom is another method of extending bloom season! One of >my >>>>>> favorites, but I'll take them all. >>>>>> >>>>>> Branching? Is this garden branching or show bench branching? A show >>>>>> branch >>>>>> must only shine on one day, whereas the garden variety must hold it's >own >>>>>> against others for a much longer time period. This is especially true >of >>>>>> tall >>>>>> bearded irises. >>>>>> >>>>>> I find myself looking for show bench branching on all of my seedlings >>>>>> although >>>>>> I know that my rebloomers will rarely make a show bench based on the >>>>>> timing of >>>>>> most iris shows. I'd be better off looking for branching that shows >well >>>>>> in >>>>>> the garden, but old habits are hard to break. >>>>>> >>>>>> During my formative years as an iris hybridizer, I grew a beautiful >>>>>> Blue(ish) >>>>>> iris that was tall with a consistent branching problem. It always grew >>>>>> the >>>>>> middle branch at a quarter turn on the stalk rather than opposite sides >of >>>>>> the >>>>>> branch! It was a gorgeous bloom but most felt it should never have >been >>>>>> introduced, based on the branching deficiency. Yet, this iris would get >a >>>>>> blue ribbon on the bench because it grew as introduced. >>>>>> >>>>>> Paul when you speak of proportion are you refering to both stalk and >bloom >>>>>> proportion and/or balance? >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe the main difference of opinions lies in bloom preference? Open >>>>>> standards or domed standards? Heavy haft marks or none at all? Pastel >>>>>> colors >>>>>> or heavily saturated dark colors? Ruffles, lace or tailored edges? >>>>>> Plicatas, >>>>>> selfs, bitones, etc.? I love variegatas! >>>>>> >>>>>> If I buy an iris that is touted as an improvement and it dies for me >>>>>> within 2 >>>>>> years, is it truly an improvement? Or should it be considered >inferior? >>>>>> >>>>>> Which irises bred from Edith Wolford were truly an improvement over EW? >>>>>> Several may have been considered a success by their breeder/creator, >>>>>> depending >>>>>> on their goals! Use the same criteria with any of the other irises >>>>>> heavily >>>>>> used in breeding. >>>>>> >>>>>> For an Edith Wolford cross to be a success for me it would have to be as >>>>>> is, >>>>>> but healthy here in KY. It has height, color, branching (most of the >>>>>> time) >>>>>> and all other qualities I like! Unfortunately, it doesn't live here. >>>>>> Except >>>>>> in my huge pot, of course. It lives, but still doesn't bloom every >year. >>>>>> It >>>>>> is still in some of my seedlings. It passes on the bitone effect, >height >>>>>> and >>>>>> good branching in plants that live. Most seedlings also have triple >>>>>> terminals. Just because an iris bombs here doesn't mean it's children >>>>>> will >>>>>> do the same. >>>>>> >>>>>> Many of the Romantic Evening children appeal to me more than RE, but who >>>>>> can >>>>>> buy all 93 of them? (I also have children of RE, but it is long gone) >>>>>> >>>>>> There are many irises introduced each year that don't appeal to me, yet, >>>>>> I'm >>>>>> sure most furthered some goal of the hybridizer. It's quite possible >that >>>>>> I'd >>>>>> say "ugh" to your (generic your) favorite iris, but that doesn't make >them >>>>>> inferior. >>>>>> >>>>>> How about that beautiful pink iris that looks just like two dozen >>>>>> (hundred) >>>>>> other beautiful pink irises? Was it folly to introduce it? Or did it >>>>>> exhibit >>>>>> something special or new to the hybridizer? >>>>>> >>>>>> Just saying that much of what we see is simply "the eye of the >beholder." >>>>>> This is one of the reasons for National Display Gardens and iris >photos! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Betty Wilkerson . . . thanks for your time. >>>>>> KY Zone 6 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ---Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Paul Archer <pharcher@mindspring.com> >>>>>> To: iris@hort.net >>>>>> Sent: Sun, Jun 20, 2010 12:44 pm >>>>>> Subject: Re: [iris]:HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I personally select for plants with the following (since I breed TB's, >>>>>> MTB's, >>>>>> ntermediates and Arilbreds)... >>>>>> First off, each cross has a particular goal for a flower characteristic. >>>>>> If a >>>>>> lower meets that goal or something unique shows up then the following >is >>>>>> valuated... >>>>>> -Flowers that have good bloom substance (more then two days of life). I >>>>>> would >>>>>> lways like 3 days but that is >>>>>> slim pickin's. >>>>>> Upright foliage >>>>>> Disease resistance (as well as blue-green foliage) >>>>>> Stalks that do not need staking >>>>>> Good branching (not as easy as it might seem) >>>>>> At least two increases to bloom size >>>>>> Proper proportion (regardless of class). >>>>>> Bud count of at least 8 with a goal of triple sockets and/or lower >>>>>> branches >>>>>> Rebloom if possible >>>>>> >>>>>> irst year seedlings are evaluated for color and general growth. The >>>>>> second >>>>>> ear is make it or break it unless foul weather has played a role in >>>>>> general. >>>>>> f any one or two of those qualities is missing in a seedlng (but the >>>>>> flower >>>>>> ust be exceptional) it is selected as breeding stock. Any more than >two >>>>>> faults >>>>>> s usually tossed. I do have one plant that is an exception to that rule >>>>>> and I >>>>>> ill never, ever distribute it. Once I get what I want from it it will >get >>>>>> ossed. >>>>>> Arilbreds are something else altogether and have their own set of >issues, >>>>>> but >>>>>> imilarly judged. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: autmirislvr@aol.com >>>>>> Sent: Jun 20, 2010 12:14 PM >>>>>> To: iris@hort.net >>>>>> Subject: [iris]:HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings) >>>>>> >>>>>> This is a side issue to the Limbo Seedling thread. >>>>>> >>>>>> So many things to consider. >>>>>> >>>>>> <<second class seedlings>> >>>>>> >>>>>> An improvement might be a taller specimen, more branches, longer bloom >>>>>> season, >>>>>> deeper colors, etc..What are your goals and how do they mesh with what >the >>>>>> rest of us like? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Would some of the hybridizers on this list please give us some idea of >>>>>> what >>>>>> they consider an advancement? What are your goals? What are you trying >>>>>> to >>>>>> improve in the irises you breed? Specifically, what would it take to >be >>>>>> a >>>>>> "first class" seedling in your garden? >>>>>> >>>>>> Each hybridizer has their own goals. To an extent, an advancement or >>>>>> "better" >>>>>> iris is in the eye of the beholder. >>>>>> >>>>>> Feed Back, please! >>>>>> >>>>>> Betty Wilkerson . . . extremely fussy about colors and patterns. >>>>>> Bridge In Time Irises >>>>>> KY Zone 6 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Dana Brown <ddbro@sbcglobal.net> >>>>>> To: iris@hort.net >>>>>> Sent: Sun, Jun 20, 2010 8:56 am >>>>>> Subject: RE: [iris] Re: Limbo Seedlings >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Paul, >>>>>> Just imagine how much worse it would be if all the seconds and culls >>>>>> ere floating around out there as well. If your "limbo" seedlings are >>>>>> etter than so many of the current intros, then kudos to you for being a >>>>>> iscerning hybridizer/irisarian!! Why would you want to lower your >>>>>> tandards at this point? >>>>>> As far as all the tracking and record keeping....well, given the >>>>>> umber of misnamed or no name iris already out there I guess we already >>>>>> know >>>>>> hat not everyone keeps good records. >>>>>> Bottom line for me as a hybridizer, no, I don't want to send my >>>>>> econd class seedlings out in public where they might get released into >>>>>> eneral population. >>>>>> Dana >>>>>> Dana D. Brown >>>>>> IS, ASI, MIS, RIS, SPIS, TBIS >>>>>> alevil Iris Gardens & Kennels >>>>>> ww.malevil-iris.com >>>>>> ubbock, TX 79403 >>>>>> one 7 USDA, Zone 10 Sunset >>>>>> dbro@sbcglobal.net >>>>>> Home of: >>>>>> errimac's Amarula CGC TDI >>>>>> H. Merrimac the Agean CD, RA, CGC, TDI >>>>>> >>>>>> ----Original Message----- >>>>>> rom: owner-iris@hort.net [o*@hort.net] On Behalf Of Paul >>>>>> rcher >>>>>> ent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 6:33 PM >>>>>> o: Iris chat forum >>>>>> ubject: [iris] Re: Limbo Seedlings >>>>>> I agree with that as well. However, considering the sheer amount of >>>>>> egistered plants I have paid good money for and turned out to be >complete >>>>>> rap for various reasons and most of my "limbo" seedlings surpass the >ones >>>>>> I >>>>>> ought, and by that standard maybe I should be Registering a whole lot >>>>>> more. >>>>>> lso some Registered plants make very poor parents once I get seeds from >>>>>> hem, yet they were Registered by the Hybridizer anyway. The assumption >>>>>> hat a Registered plant is a worthy parent is mute. But sorry to burst >>>>>> your >>>>>> ubble but the danger of releasing poor plant has already been surpassed >>>>>> umerous times and is now and endemic problem, yet may great cultivars >are >>>>>> oming from these very plants through selection efforts. The difference >is >>>>>> he Hybridizer standard of which mine is very high. >>>>>> It could also be said that those "limbo" seedlings that would be >released >>>>>> nto this proposed program would need to be kept track of by the >purchaser >>>>>> nd Hybridizer and not released as a cultivar for the sheer sake of >>>>>> ropagation purposes unless it has been evaluated by numerous people, >>>>>> eedback reported on, and the decision made by the Hybridizer to remove >it >>>>>> rom "limbo" list and actually Registered. Yes, that takes some work, >but >>>>>> hat prevents the seedling being distributed under a false name or >>>>>> confusion >>>>>> nd is certainly no worse than distributing the Registered ones that I >>>>>> would >>>>>> ust as soon toss the second or third year I've seen them bloom. >>>>>> hat is likely the root cause of much of the problem we have occuring >>>>>> today. >>>>>> >>>>>> Original message:------- >>>>>> >>>>>> feel that there is danger in releasing to the public seedlings that >though >>>>>> beautiful are not quite worthy of registration and introduction. >>>>>> irst: One goal as hybridizers should be to improve irises. If we >allow >>>>>> ven slightly inferior cultivars to be diseminated-among the public, we >are >>>>>> ot being faithful to that goal. Second: These nameless seedlings are >>>>>> ertain to become confused with look alike named varieties to the >detriment >>>>>> f the named varieties and to the people who buy them misnamed. >>>>>> know we all have favorite seedlings like this. I always say, "I'll >keep >>>>>> t until I need the room for something better". When I am excited about >>>>>> the >>>>>> better one, I find it doesn't hurt to let the lesser one go. >>>>>> rancelle Edwards >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> o sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the >>>>>> essage text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> o sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the >>>>>> essage text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS >>>>>> >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> o sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the >>>>>> essage text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 19:33:28 -0400 (EDT) >>>>> From: Paul Archer <pharcher@mindspring.com> >>>>> Subject: [iris] Re: Limbo Seedlings >>>>> >>>>> I agree with that as well. However, considering the sheer amount of >Registered plants I have paid good money for and turned out to be complete >crap for various reasons and most of my "limbo" seedlings surpass the ones I >bought, and by that standard maybe I should be Registering a whole lot more. >Also some Registered plants make very poor parents once I get seeds from them, >yet they were Registered by the Hybridizer anyway. The assumption that a >Registered plant is a worthy parent is mute. But sorry to burst your bubble >but the danger of releasing poor plant has already been surpassed numerous >times and is now and endemic problem, yet may great cultivars are coming from >these very plants through selection efforts. The difference is the Hybridizer >standard of which mine is very high. >>>>> >>>>> It could also be said that those "limbo" seedlings that would be released >into this proposed program would need to be kept track of by the purchaser and >Hybridizer and not released as a cultivar for the sheer sake of propagation >purposes unless it has been evaluated by numerous people, feedback reported >on, and the decision made by the Hybridizer to remove it from "limbo" list and >actually Registered. Yes, that takes some work, but that prevents the >seedling being distributed under a false name or confusion and is certainly no >worse than distributing the Registered ones that I would just as soon toss the >second or third year I've seen them bloom. >>>>> That is likely the root cause of much of the problem we have occuring >today. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Original message:------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I feel that there is danger in releasing to the public seedlings that >though >>>>> beautiful are not quite worthy of registration and introduction. >>>>> First: One goal as hybridizers should be to improve irises. If we allow >>>>> even slightly inferior cultivars to be diseminated-among the public, we >are >>>>> not being faithful to that goal. Second: These nameless seedlings are >>>>> certain to become confused with look alike named varieties to the >detriment >>>>> of the named varieties and to the people who buy them misnamed. >>>>> I know we all have favorite seedlings like this. I always say, "I'll >keep >>>>> it until I need the room for something better". When I am excited about >the >>>>> better one, I find it doesn't hurt to let the lesser one go. >>>>> Francelle Edwards >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 08:56:27 -0500 >>>>> From: "Dana Brown" <ddbro@sbcglobal.net> >>>>> Subject: RE: [iris] Re: Limbo Seedlings >>>>> >>>>> Paul, >>>>> Just imagine how much worse it would be if all the seconds and culls >>>>> were floating around out there as well. If your "limbo" seedlings are >>>>> better than so many of the current intros, then kudos to you for being a >>>>> discerning hybridizer/irisarian!! Why would you want to lower your >>>>> standards at this point? >>>>> As far as all the tracking and record keeping....well, given the >>>>> number of misnamed or no name iris already out there I guess we already >know >>>>> that not everyone keeps good records. >>>>> Bottom line for me as a hybridizer, no, I don't want to send my >>>>> second class seedlings out in public where they might get released into >>>>> general population. >>>>> >>>>> Dana >>>>> >>>>> Dana D. Brown >>>>> AIS, ASI, MIS, RIS, SPIS, TBIS >>>>> Malevil Iris Gardens & Kennels >>>>> www.malevil-iris.com >>>>> Lubbock, TX 79403 >>>>> Zone 7 USDA, Zone 10 Sunset >>>>> ddbro@sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>>> Home of: >>>>> Merrimac's Amarula CGC TDI >>>>> CH. Merrimac the Agean CD, RA, CGC, TDI >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: owner-iris@hort.net [o*@hort.net] On Behalf Of Paul >>>>> Archer >>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 6:33 PM >>>>> To: Iris chat forum >>>>> Subject: [iris] Re: Limbo Seedlings >>>>> >>>>> I agree with that as well. However, considering the sheer amount of >>>>> Registered plants I have paid good money for and turned out to be >complete >>>>> crap for various reasons and most of my "limbo" seedlings surpass the >ones I >>>>> bought, and by that standard maybe I should be Registering a whole lot >more. >>>>> Also some Registered plants make very poor parents once I get seeds from >>>>> them, yet they were Registered by the Hybridizer anyway. The assumption >>>>> that a Registered plant is a worthy parent is mute. But sorry to burst >your >>>>> bubble but the danger of releasing poor plant has already been surpassed >>>>> numerous times and is now and endemic problem, yet may great cultivars >are >>>>> coming from these very plants through selection efforts. The difference >is >>>>> the Hybridizer standard of which mine is very high. >>>>> >>>>> It could also be said that those "limbo" seedlings that would be >released >>>>> into this proposed program would need to be kept track of by the >purchaser >>>>> and Hybridizer and not released as a cultivar for the sheer sake of >>>>> propagation purposes unless it has been evaluated by numerous people, >>>>> feedback reported on, and the decision made by the Hybridizer to remove >it >>>>> from "limbo" list and actually Registered. Yes, that takes some work, >but >>>>> that prevents the seedling being distributed under a false name or >confusion >>>>> and is certainly no worse than distributing the Registered ones that I >would >>>>> just as soon toss the second or third year I've seen them bloom. >>>>> That is likely the root cause of much of the problem we have occuring >today. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Original message:------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I feel that there is danger in releasing to the public seedlings that >though >>>>> >>>>> beautiful are not quite worthy of registration and introduction. >>>>> First: One goal as hybridizers should be to improve irises. If we allow >>>>> even slightly inferior cultivars to be diseminated-among the public, we >are >>>>> not being faithful to that goal. Second: These nameless seedlings are >>>>> certain to become confused with look alike named varieties to the >detriment >>>>> of the named varieties and to the people who buy them misnamed. >>>>> I know we all have favorite seedlings like this. I always say, "I'll >keep >>>>> it until I need the room for something better". When I am excited about >the >>>>> >>>>> better one, I find it doesn't hurt to let the lesser one go. >>>>> Francelle Edwards >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> End of iris DIGEST V1 #1084 >>>>> *************************** >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the >>>>> message text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS-DIGEST >>>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the >>>> message text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS >>>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the >>> message text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the >>> message text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS >>> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the >> message text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the >message text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS --------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the message text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS
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