Re: HYB: daylength independent

Everything in greenhouse was well watered. Outside did  get very dry.
Heat dormancy seems to differ in trigger temperature from plant to plant.
But.. I suspect biggest factor is that it had more plant energy as it had a longer growth season and warmer growing conditions. 

I think I'll try a piece of Immortality there. A worthy experiment.
I've gone through all the reports that I could find of hybridizing results. Mostly same reports as Betty. Results vary greatly, even in line breeding where all the factors should eventually line up. If there were a reblooming gene , there would be better results by now. By comparison, my results of Forever Blue X What Again and Forever Blue x Victoria Falls are an exception. FB X WA, every seedling rebloomed. Some were Fall cyclic rebloomers but about 1/4 were daylight independent. FB X VF, it would seem to have been 100% rebloomers, all fall cyclic. A number never got to put up fall flowers, but did have bloom stalks developing. In contrast, no rebloomers at all in crosses to the summer bloomers, such as Immortality, Baby blessed etc. And I did try a lot of crosses.
As I checked further and further, I've found time and time again, reports of rebloomers coming from crosses of different species, either F1 or F2. Rebloom is not a genetic trait as a gene, but a combination of genes. Thus one species has a certain signal to stop fall bloom and another has a different trigger. When species 1 set of genes lines up with species two genes in same plant, signal to stop fall bloom just does not stop it, wrong languages and no translator. Thus a double recessive set. Then each set of rebloomers has its own sets, from different species . Then a plant can have the two sets of genes , but never be able to rebloom as on top of it all, plants need the faster maturity rate and energy, which can come from a number of factors.
The same species when crossed to another species to produce rebloomers, does not seem to produce rebloom the same way when crossed to others of same species. The exception to this is clones of aphylla crossed to each other. Yet aphylla 56-61A , which produced rebloomers when crossed to Wine Red (another aphylla clone) does not produce rebloomers in open pollinated seeds, which I had assumed were selfed seeds. So, the theory that each clone carried rebloom gene is correct, then a selfed plant should produce rebloomers. I'll make a note to self aphylla 56-61A when it blooms this year., so I can check this further. But as I don't have climate where the original cross grew, I'll need some volunteers in warmer climes. Any volunteers? 

Chuck Chapman


Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 07:04:20 -0500
From: Linda Mann <lmann@lock-net.com>
Subject: [iris] Re: HYB: Daylength independent

Now that's just wierd!

Any theory on why it would bloom earlier in a greenhouse than in the
ground?  Better nutrition & moisture so that, after the bloom trigger
(temperature?) was reached, it grew faster and bloomed sooner?
Have you tried putting some IMM in the greenhouse? I've never been able 
to keep it alive in a pot.

Chuck said:
<I had a number of plants in a cold greenhouse , and it got very hot in
the summer. Still Rosalie Figge bloomed in August, about 3-4 weeks ahead 
of when it bloomed outside.>
- --
Linda Mann east Tennessee USA zone 7/8
**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. 
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos
-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 08:04:53 -0600
From: "El Hutchison" <eleanore@mts.net>
Subject: Re: [iris] Re:  HYB: Daylength independent
Morning all. This has been a very interesting discussion. When the talk started mentioning street lights or yard security lights, I had to add in my 
observations.
I've lived in the country since 1992. At my old place, the yard light was 
on the east side of the house, almost directly over my rock garden.  I
sometimes wondered if all those dwarf iris bloomed earlier because of 24 hrs of light during spring. I had no rebloomers though until 1997, when I got Forever Blue from Chuck, which I planted at the back of the house, in my 
nursery bed on the west side.  No extra light reached that area.  FB
rebloomed in 1999, which I thought was just a fluke at the time. It's
rebloomed though every year since.
I moved to my existing place in July of 1999. Again, the yard light is on the east side, right beside 2 very large beds with lots of different iris, some potential rebloomers, plus about a 30 ft span of just Chuck's iris. As mentioned in post 'Hyb Rebloomers Canada 2007', Forever Blue, Wizard of Hope 
and Blueberry Tart rebloom in that area, as does Autumn Jester, just a
little further away from the yard light. However, Forever Blue, Wizard of Hope also rebloom on the west side of the house, well out of the light cast by the yard light. This is also the same spot that both MDB Ditto and Bee Wings rebloomed several years ago during a cold rainy spring, as did MDB 
Velvet Toy this year, all near the end of Sept.  These 3 MDB's are also
planted closer to the yard light and never rebloomed in that location, even 
though all the clumps are about the same age.
In any case, whenever Chuck introduces an iris that reblooms, you can be 
sure I'll try it.  :)

El, near Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Z3
MIS, DIS & HIPS Display Garden

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <irischapman@aim.com>
To: <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 11:41 PM
Subject: [iris] Re: HYB: Daylength independent



Thanks for the information Griff.

When is your spring bloom?
Is there any possibility of plant heat dormancy in some of ther 
plants?

What sort of temperatures do you get day and night  in summer and in
October?

Chuck Chapman

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:04:33 -0500
From: "J. Griffin Crump" <jgcrump@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [iris] Re:  HYB: Daylength independent

See my comments below, please.  --  Griff

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <irischapman@aim.com>
To: <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 5:40 PM
Subject: [iris] Re: HYB: Daylength independent



>
I have read another account of early summer bloom in some plants,
including Immortality, Queen Dorothy and Baby Blessed . Rebloomn

starting

in June and continuing to Fall. Plants were in an area where they got
light all night from a security light. It makes me wonder about all

those

other reports of  June/July rebloom. What were the lighting

conditions?
All three of these cultivars are, or were, in my front garden. I 
recall
that, in QUEEN DOROTHY's first year here, it bloomed in spring, again 
in

July, then 3 more times until late fall.  It has not repeated that
performance.  In fact, it seldom reblooms at all, despite having been
moved
in the garden more than once. The only major difference in 
conditions

from
then until now is that the county several years ago installed a
streetlight,
over my objections, about 50 yards down the street, so that the 
garden no
longer is in full darkness at night. Might that have an effect? I 
do not

know.  BABY BLESSED rebloomed in most years, but IMMORTALITY does not
rebloom here.

Here's another puzzler:  HAUNTING reblooms reliably at Halloween here
(zone
7a), and does the same at Winterberry Gardens (zone 6b), despite the 
fact
that Winterberry's elevation is 1,000 feet higher than mine and its 
peak
spring bloom is 2 weeks later than mine. We are at the same latitude. 
This
would seem to indicate that temperature is not the deciding factor as 
far

as
HAUNTING is concerned.

-



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 09:13:22 -0500
From: autmirislvr@aol.com
Subject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: daylength independent

Linda,?
My first round of "everbloomers" was Immortality, Feed Back & Sugar Blues.? My primary goal was to merge their abilities (rebloom) with the form of oncers or CA rebloomers.?
There were no direct crosses between those three.? However, several of the crosses I made with Immortality and Feed Back gave hope.?
No notes on how many bloomed, sometimes a note on when they bloomed if I was surprised at the time.? Most have been fall.? It was not uncommon for me to plant the 10-12 strongest from a cross and either pitch the rest or let them die in their pots.?
Returning Chameleon (Pink Sleigh x Immortality) can and does bloom in the summer.? (July & Aug) Bridge In Time seems to be a cycle rebloomer as most of my?previous introductions have been.???
As to cold climate summer x cold climate cycle?? Yes.? I crossed Corn Harvest x Immortality and it gave three cycle rebloomers.? The only one of interest bloomed in Sept. (early for me) and was a definite improvement on both.? Yellow standards over lavender falls, tall and well branched.???It was a very vigorous grower and was lined out but eventually discarded.?Crossed but no pods.? Not appreciated enough at the time.? Others were less than CH.?
IMM x CHAMPAGNE ELEGANCE:Apparently CE liked Alvaton better than she likes Mitchell's Madness/Windy Garden/Betty's Dillusions!? <vbg>? It refuses to bloom here.? It bloomed one July at Alvaton!? Obviously it bloomed in the spring or I wouldn't have had the cross.? There were 60 small seed.? I recall this was one of the crosses that sprouted the third week in FEB. 1992.? I came home from pot luck to find several crosses, out of 77, had sprouted and gone into the leaf mulch above.? Some were so light starved I was not able to save them.?
My notes only give the date on the first seedling (above) to rebloom but I remember the time and they followed one after the other.? Going on memory but I seem to recall about 5 that bloomed during summer.? All were dingy in color and none were as outstanding as the first one that bloomed. ?Notes indicate the cross produced many strong seedlings.? I don't recall fall rebloom or much else about the cross.?
I've rarely gotten the high percentage of rebloom in seedlings that people expect or others report.? Maybe that is because I've primarily used cold climate x warm climate (and sporadic) rebloomers.? Maybe it's because I don't always plant all the seedlings??
Just off the top of my head the cross that produced Echo Location has given the most rebloom (14 seed/7plants/4 rebloomed)? All good!?? 

IMMORTALITY X (CHRISTMAS RUBIES x FOXY LADY):
According to my notes the pollen seedling (pleasing pink) did not rebloom and my memory says the same.??CR is another of my obsessions.? I tried to reproduce this cross since I move out here, but?CR & FL refuse to live here.??Seedlings were interesting to say the least.? Not exactly what I expected.??
PRECIOUS MOMENTS X IMMORTALITY:??Oh!? Only 14 seed/12 plants/3 rebloomed.? Strong!? (IMM= pollen) 

Why did I use PM?? (Spoon introduced a rebloomer from it)
1) I'm really big on?reading the R & I's.? (as you know) It had?WINTER OLYMPICS and others?with rebloom in it's linage.??A glimmer of hope.? 
2) Monty was excited about it.
3)?I'm not fond of cream irises but I thought PM hung the moon!??An exceptional iris in my Alvaton garden.? (died here)?
One of my biggest dissappointments in those years was when?0544-01RE would not grow?stalks taller than 16-18 inches!???Not quite as pretty as PM, but good.?
I've often made crosses based on the hope that parents have passed on rebloom genes that have simply not expressed themselves in the chosen parent.? Sometimes I've been successful.? When not, I choose a good seedling and carry on.?
MEMPHIS MISS is a very strong iris from PRESENCE X PINK ATTRACTION.? In this case my gamble produced some very nice seedlings but no rebloom.?
SILVERADO contained NAVY STRUT and others that are sporadic rebloomers.? It didn't work for me.? For me it took about 3 generations to bring back the rebloom.? Maybe if I'd used different partners?? Some things we'll never know.?
In some cases I simply have a "build a rebloomer" plan.? I've only had CHRISTMAS RUBIES grow well for me one time, but I was mesmerized-transfixed-captured for all time!? My plan was to "build" a rebloom white with red beards that looked like CR!? <vbg>? 

In some cases I simply have left over pollen!? <vbg>
This spring I will bloom seedlings from cold climate x cold climate.? Stand back!? Let spring begin!? 

Betty Wilkerson/Bridge In Time/KY/zone 6 . . .
"Only those who dare to dream can make a dream come true!"
I'm curious, have you made many cold climate summer X cold climate summer crosses? Or cold climate summer X cold climate cycle?? 



- -----Original Message-----
From: Linda Mann <lmann@lock-net.com>
To: iris@hort.net
Sent: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 12:21 pm
Subject: [iris] Re: HYB: daylength independent
Betty, you've been working with rebloomers for a long time - I'm curious, have you made many cold climate summer X cold climate summer crosses? Or cold climate summer X cold climate cycle?? 
?
If so, do you have notes on what percentage of the seedlings were summer, cycle, or non-rebloom?? 
?
I see from the chart you sent me of IMM crosses you've made that you did get rebloomers from IMM X CHAMPAGNE ELEGANCE. CE is a cycle rebloomer here (hardly ever reblooms even as a cycle), what's its bloom habit in KY? summer or cycle?? 
?
Do you have other notes/memory of which type (by type, I mean season) of rebloom seedlings the cross produced or what percentage? Your notes on the excel file just say 'several rebloomers'.? 
?
Were the CHRISTMAS RUBIES X FOXY LADY and VICTORIA FALLS X VANITY seedlings you crossed with IMM rebloomers? If so, what type?? 
?
?Your notes say IMM X PRECIOUS MOMENTS produced summer rebloomers. Since PM hasn't been reported to rebloom anywhere, I'm surprised by that one (doesn't match my preconceptions <g>)? 
?
[According to the new, updated, revised, and still full of errors ;-( rebloom checklist, CHRISTMAS RUBIES, PINK SLEIGH, PRECIOUS MOMENTS have not been reported to rebloom anywhere (which, of course, doesn't mean they haven't, just that nobody told us about it); GLISTENING ICICLE only in CA & MO; VANITY only in CA & VA; FOXY LADY registered as a rebloomer and lots of reports for it, including KY, VF not registered as a rebloomer, but widespread reports of rebloom for it as well.]? 
- -- Linda Mann east Tennessee USA zone 7/8?
East Tennessee Iris Society <http://www.DiscoverET.org/etis>?
Region 7, Kentucky-Tennessee <http://www.aisregion7.org>?
American Iris Society web site <http://www.irises.org>?
talk archives: <http://www.hort.net/lists/iris-talk/>?
photos archives: <http://www.hort.net/lists/iris-photos/>?
online R&I <http://www.irisregister.com>?
?
?

------------------------------

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